Proper Way of Requesting a Different runway?

[Kuragiman 227]

I am a World Traffic user and route designer.   I make Airport Operations files always for my airports.    Quite often, on long flights, by the time I get to the destination the weather has changed and the AI are using the flow profile I programmed file the weather scenario at hand.  This quite often ends up being the opposite runway I  filed with my flight plan.   What is the correct method of requesting a different approach runway?   The way suggested in the SayIt prompt didn't do anything.  The controller just told me to keep descending via the Star but when he handed me over to approach no runway change was given.  They still had me landing opposite way of traffic.    I then tried changing the Approach type and refiling.  While this update the flight plan and the moving map display.. the controller still told me to land on the opposite runway.

Is there a way to get the controller to issue you a different runway that I missed in the manual while on an IFR flight?

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 870]

There are 2 ways to address this.

The most straight forward way is to request vectors to the ILS (or other approach type) for runway xx. 

The other way would be to uncheck the Force Pilot Runway Selection option after you take off and then when P2A calculates the Arrival procedure it will ignore what's in your flight plan and give you the runway aligned with the winds.  This obviously would require a possible reprogramming of the FMC mid flight, but is probably the most realistic way to get the Arrival approach assignments.  So for more experienced pilots, this is probably the way to go.

 

[Alvega 2,124]

4 hours ago, Dave-Pilot2ATC said:

There are 2 ways to address this.

The most straight forward way is to request vectors to the ILS (or other approach type) for runway xx. 

The other way would be to uncheck the Force Pilot Runway Selection option after you take off and then when P2A calculates the Arrival procedure it will ignore what's in your flight plan and give you the runway aligned with the winds.  This obviously would require a possible reprogramming of the FMC mid flight, but is probably the most realistic way to get the Arrival approach assignments.  So for more experienced pilots, this is probably the way to go.

 

Hi Dave,

P2A is always filling the arrival runway and approach on the flight plan when I click "file" (I dunno why). Even with it doing that, if I uncheck the Force Pilot runway after take off it will give another runway if the wind changed?

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 870]

You can uncheck Auto Load Recommended Procedures and the Flight Plan will not be filled in.  However, you will need to update the flight plan when the procedures are assigned if you want the moving map to contain the correct route to fly. 

For most users, leaving that option checked is a good idea to simplify the flight.

If Force Pilot Runway Selection is not checked, then before giving the expected approach information nearing the Arrival airport, a new look at recommended procedures is done and the runway might change.  Once that is done, the arrival procedures and runway are "locked".

 

[Alvega 2,124]

Ok, thanks Dave.

[Kuragiman 227]

Yeah.   That seems the way to go.  That is the realistic way.   I have no problem changing the FMC in mid flight.  Its what they do.  I'll give it a shot on my next flight.

 

[geedub 15]

My question concerns a change of Dep rwy. Dave could you please review my logic here ... it's spoiling a number of flights and is most likely my problem. 

The Goal is to take off on the SIM active; via a SID; have this reflected in the P2ATC flight plan; and program the FMC accordingly. Synchronicity.  

Accordingly, I configure P2ATC to source SIM wx as my start point. 
When I fire up the a/c (IXEG) I hear ATIS confirm the Dep rwy(s) in use (I assume according to prevailing winds). Note: should I have 'actual weather' selected?  
I then select a suitable SID based on the SIM's ATIS  rwy. 

I see my choices reflected in the FPL window area. I go ahead and programme the FMC based on those, and cross-check.   

Then when I request Taxi, ATC direct me to a rwy other than the ATIS rwy and the matching SID I chose?!

My FMC FPL is now incorrect. Rather than reprogramme it I choose a different SID to match ATC's instructions. I re-verify the Pilot2ATC FPL but ATC sticks to its original taxt instructions i.e. to a different Dep rwy than the SID.  

What's happening?  What's proper set-up procedure to avoid this? If I should find a mismatch in Dep rwys what is my best option?  Hope this scans..

Love this programme. Best regards

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 870]

Gareth,

Just check the option on the Flt:Pln tab to "Force Pilot Runway Selection" and you will be given the runway you select the SID for.

If you are not flying with a SID, you can verbally request taxi to a specific runway like "<CallSign> ready  to  taxi to runway 25 left" and if  that option is checked, you will get RW25L.

Dave

[geedub 15]

Thanks Dave, I'm grateful for these solutions.

I'm even inspired to re-read the latest Manual <grin>

Cheers,

Gareth 

[pegruder 65]

Out of curiosity Dave, why does P2A not follow the runways the ATIS appears to have laid out?  This was part of my confusion when I started using P2A as well.  I listen to ATIS, get all set up, then get a different departure runway than was listed.  Sometimes it's not even something like 22L vs R, its a completely opposite direction.

[Dave-Pilot2ATC 870]

If you don't have Force Pilot Runway Selection and you don't pick your own SID in the Flight Plan, it will follow the ATIS Runway.

[knightracing 0]

Hey Dave, 

I have been using your suggested method listed above for a while now ( Force Runway unchecked at destination ) and it does work amazingly well. Hardly ever have direction issues compared to my WT3 operations files and when there are it's usually at airports where I've programmed complex operations for multiple crossing runways which I couldn't expect P2A to predict. ( see below )

The only thing I notice and I'll use CYYZ as an example as it's my home airport. When P2A chooses an arrival runway, it always chooses the first in order. For example if Operations are East, it seems P2A will always choose runway 05, never 06L or 06R. For West ops it will always chooses 23 and never 24L or 24R. I'd like a little more randomness on that front if it's possible. Small thing but since the topic is up here.

Ultimately, I'd absolutely love if P2A could read the Operations file or if Taxi maintenance could let us write our own ops like in Wt3. Wish list? ;)

p

 

 

[vitojethro 2]

On 11/14/2017 at 6:35 PM, Dave-Pilot2ATC said:

You can uncheck Auto Load Recommended Procedures and the Flight Plan will not be filled in.  However, you will need to update the flight plan when the procedures are assigned if you want the moving map to contain the correct route to fly. 

For most users, leaving that option checked is a good idea to simplify the flight.

If Force Pilot Runway Selection is not checked, then before giving the expected approach information nearing the Arrival airport, a new look at recommended procedures is done and the runway might change.  Once that is done, the arrival procedures and runway are "locked".

 

When I have Auto Load Recommended Procedures unchecked, they are filled in. Not sure if I understand or if there is a bug?

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[Dave-Pilot2ATC 870]

In the User's Guide it states:

"Checking this option will have Pilot2ATC determine the recommended SID, STAR, and/or Approach for the flight plan when you “File” it and add it to the filed flight plan. "

So if you enter just the route, and have the Load Recommended Procedures unchecked, you will not get an error and the recommended procedures will not be added to your visible flight plan, allowing you to be "surprised" when ATC assigns them later.

If you use this method, be sure the last waypoint in the route connects to a STAR so the route will be correct for ATC.

[vitojethro 2]

A new day and it seems to be working correctly now contrary to my post above, perhaps I just needed to restart XP & P2ATC. The filed flight plan does not show any procedures but I was given some. I don't understand what you mean by connecting the last waypoint in the route to a STAR - I only have the default TOD PT in the route, is that not connected to all STARS in the world? Or if I was to add another real waypoint near the destination airport, how does it connect to the STAR, does it have to be a point on the STAR or just have to be sensibly close?

Incidentally, from a usage point of view I don't care so much about being surprised or not, if the route would be drawn on the map that would help me understand what is going on better, especially from a troubleshooting perspective & learning perspective. I can always pretend to be surprised.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding and 'Auto Load' effectively only means 'Draw on map' and 'Force Pilot Runway Selection' means 'Never let ATC determine procedures'. I have read the manual a few times but still unclear, perhaps as this is my first real attempt at ATC so I have no proper context how things should really flow.

Ultimately, what I desire is as follows, is this possible?:

1. 'File' to generate a full flight plan that is accurate to weather at that point in time, and always draw the full flight plan the screen. I can then add sensible intermediate waypoints that hopefully don't break the logic.
2. P2ATC to always give me new procedures if the weather changes, and to update the map as well if that happens en-route. I never want to control this. I then have to change the plan in my FMC. If I happen to go for a coffee break, I come back and may notice the map has changed.