Captain Sim 757 in beta

[DylanC 181]

32 minutes ago, Steve Dra said:

OMG my thoughts exactly Dave.  Was about to post this over in the CS forum, in response if I'd pay for a beta from them?

The answer for me is a resounding yes, but only if you offer the following:

• Show me a video of the FMC being programmed, fully.
• Show me a video of changes being made to the FMC, affecting the flight of the aircraft properly.
• Show me a video of the MCP in use, all knobs as switches in flight, affecting the flight of the aircraft properly.
• Show me a video of a normal startup from cold and dark, what happens when you try to start with the pacs misconfigured, APU start, Air Cart start, etc.
• Show me a video of climbing to altitude and viewing the pressurization gauge working normally, and a misconfigured system triggering warnings.

In other words, what you've shown us so far is indeed beautiful and what you're commonly known for, however I'm not interested in paying for a nice model with no substance, like I did with your 1st 757 and the infamous "Block" program. (Some of us who've been around here long enough remember that little stunt and how long it took for you to finally release "Block F" which was the actual avionics and nav systems)

Guarantee that if I buy your beta at full price, you will set a date when I'll receive the fully completed version, and every month you miss the deadline I receive 12.5% of my initial purchase price back, and after 8 months of a delayed product, I receive a full refund for a beta product I purchased that you could not deliver on a very generous completion schedule.

Do these things listed above and you'll prove to us that you're serious about completing this aircraft to today's standards for a complex airliner.
Otherwise you're once again asking the simming community to blindly trust that you'll completely finish this project after you already have our money (Where is the incentive for you to complete this once you have a full purchase price from us I might ask?)

I have a feeling this post would last about 3 mins over in their forum and I'd be branded as a malcontent, what do you think?  It's sad that so many young simmers are ready to just throw money at them again after seeing videos of a great model (no doubt they can produce them all day long...but systems...working systems...not so much). 

PT Barnum's famous quote should be the corporate mission statement and pasted on every single CS webpage. 

Umm, if you don't want to post it may I?   I agree the CS757 was one of their first FMC Airliners as "Alcides" points out, but it was unacceptable for an aircraft to fall to the ground, flapping back and forth like a piece of paper whenever you stalled it (stall tests on purpose BTW).  I too look forward to a decent 757 from a dev albeit CS, LevelD or QW, but minimally get the basic flight dynamics down.

[Lenny777 299]

Have you voted to buy in Beta4 as it goes through its final tests? I have.

[Steve Dra 7,574]

33 minutes ago, DylanC said:

Umm, if you don't want to post it may I?   I agree the CS757 was one of their first FMC Airliners as "Alcides" points out, but it was unacceptable for an aircraft to fall to the ground, flapping back and forth like a piece of paper whenever you stalled it (stall tests on purpose BTW).  I too look forward to a decent 757 from a dev albeit CS, LevelD or QW, but minimally get the basic flight dynamics down.

Sure Dylan go ahead and post the text....my guess is it won't be received well over there..

I haven't posted in their forums for years after the way I saw they treated customers asking relevant questions and having the posts deleted by the moderator almost as fast as they were posted.  You know....simple questions like will you finish this uncompleted aircraft?  Since you released airplane X with a long list of bugs, you've since released 3 more models that also have the same issues, when are you going to address the bugs on the plane I bought months/years ago?  Are you too busy releasing beautiful exterior models to release a fully finished aircraft?  You know...simple, honest questions.

Another question is that they are "ready" to release a beta to the public that they want us to pay full price for, and yet they keep the all the beta testers silent via the NDA with any findings they may have that would indicate some concerning issues to serious simmers if they were to buy it (Like working avionics?)  Why not let the beta testers tell us how good it is at this stage, and how much we'll enjoy flying it with just a few minor issues still left open?  Seeing posts like that from independent simmers who are known in the simming world (not CS staff at all), would all but open the flood gates to folks paying to be in a beta. 

Its gotta' make any rational simmer scratch their head and go "Hmmm...yeah...so far all I've seen is a video from CS showing the model....why have I not seen the FMC, MCP, aircraft systems in working order?"  Makes me shake my head in sadness and amazement that some simmers are so trusting, gullible and naive even when seasoned simmers are giving them fair warning about the history of this vendor's performance regarding paid betas and finishing aircraft before moving on to the next empty shell. 

Anyway...let's see if they let their beta testers show/tell us how ready this plane really is...I'm betting they won't.

[Boeing or not going 578]

It's Captainsim you are buying into a beta always. Before the latest 727 release I remember loading up the freighter, and noticing you could never get the winglets to appear. They never fixed it in a patch I'd have to buy the newest updated version. They should have stayed making older airliners with steam gauges they did a good job on the C-130 but glass, accurate FDEs and realistic FMCs have been out of their reach before. Maybe things have changed it would be good to have a good 757 for p3d finally.

[ninerwhiskey9W 19]

They havent said what bugs are there that is causing the delay for launch, and since the initial launch video, there have been no updates to the aircraft. In comparison, the Maddog team have been releasing videos which are both tutorials, and also show working systems of the aircraft. 

While I am looking forward to the CS757, and would not mind buying a beta version as long as the basic systems work and I can complete a full flight, I will wait until the dust settles, and a more clear picture of the actual state of the aircraft is available.

[HighTowers 1,434]

Fact of the matter is that there is two sides to it. Clearly there is some show stopper bugs found by the beta team which apparently were current and ex 757 pilots and engineers. So they couldve released anyhow and put the rest in as future patches.  Withholding it is a smart move to show some sort of interest in getting them fixed. 

Flip side is they have a reputation that precedes them as many have accounted too. Now either they continue with that history or they finally matured and want to turn things around to have a better reputation rebuild. Either way though, look at the people lined up saying they will buy it immediately on FB and the forum post asking if they would pay for a beta. No matter how many people come on here and say no we cant support paid beta, theres going to be the 100 or so people (or maybe more) willing to pay for it and then of course who can resist that little bit of extra cash infusion.  What they do with it after will determine whether they really want to fix things or its just another scam. 

BTW, im not talking about things like VNAV not working quite right. So long as they keep on working to improve it, thats ok cause lets be honest, if VNAV stops working in your aircraft you dont stop flying. You manually manage things with V/S or plain old hand fly. But big FMC errors, and nav errors, or ILS not capturing would be big. 

The other point is that, another group of beta testers would also identify more bugs quicker, (assuming they are knowledgeable ones and not just user error from lack of knowledge) but again its what they do with it after getting those reports.   Its all a wait and see now. Im willing to bet they will release an early version. And since I am such a fan of the 757, I will probably be the sucker that buys in, so I will happy to give a early report to those able to hold off. 

[Steve Dra 7,574]

55 minutes ago, ninerwhiskey9W said:

While I am looking forward to the CS757, and would not mind buying a beta version as long as the basic systems work and I can complete a full flight, I will wait until the dust settles, and a more clear picture of the actual state of the aircraft is available.

Believe it or not, it may seem that I'm just bashing CS but what I'm doing is trying to hold them accountable for any products they release and don't finish without starting 3 more empty shells and getting them up for sale as well.

Like most other crazy simmers I too am looking for a good 757 for P3dV4, and if they can truly release one and prove they have changed their business model and are now more interested in becoming a trusted source of quality aircraft rather than a company who has phenomenal modelers but still no real staff to produce working systems, then I'll gladly welcome them to the deep end of the pool...otherwise they can stay in the kiddie pool of developers and be same company they always have...and I'll treat them as such.

 

21 minutes ago, HighTowers said:

Fact of the matter is that there is two sides to it. Clearly there is some show stopper bugs found by the beta team which apparently were current and ex 757 pilots and engineers. So they couldve released anyhow and put the rest in as future patches.  Withholding it is a smart move to show some sort of interest in getting them fixed. 

Flip side is they have a reputation that precedes them as many have accounted too. Now either they continue with that history or they finally matured and want to turn things around to have a better reputation rebuild. Either way though, look at the people lined up saying they will buy it immediately on FB and the forum post asking if they would pay for a beta. No matter how many people come on here and say no we cant support paid beta, theres going to be the 100 or so people (or maybe more) willing to pay for it and then of course who can resist that little bit of extra cash infusion.  What they do with it after will determine whether they really want to fix things or its just another scam. 

BTW, im not talking about things like VNAV not working quite right. So long as they keep on working to improve it, thats ok cause lets be honest, if VNAV stops working in your aircraft you dont stop flying. You manually manage things with V/S or plain old hand fly. But big FMC errors, and nav errors, or ILS not capturing would be big. 

The other point is that, another group of beta testers would also identify more bugs quicker, (assuming they are knowledgeable ones and not just user error from lack of knowledge) but again its what they do with it after getting those reports.   Its all a wait and see now. Im willing to bet they will release an early version. And since I am such a fan of the 757, I will probably be the sucker that buys in, so I will happy to give a early report to those able to hold off. 

Couldn't have said it better myself Dave!

Kudos could be given to them for slamming the brakes on the release because they knew it would cause serious backlash, but they need to take that one extra step around full disclosure, lift the NDA for the beta testers and let them show us why we can feel comfortable buying into a beta that even if the final bugs are not ever fixed, we still have a flyable and enjoyable purchase. 

"...but again its what they do with it after getting those reports."  Oh my have you hit the proverbial nail on the head.  One only has to cruise their forums for the posts they missed deleting to see how they've responded (or most typically not) to reports of bugs.  That will be the acid test to determine if they are really offering to release the beta to capture more serious bugs from a larger test group (and actually address them), or this is indeed the aforementioned money grab by them.

I too am sitting on the sideline and see how this plays out.  I want to see them succeed, but not just financially for themselves, rather as a new member to the very short list of trusted sim companies.  C'mom  CS....surprise us (for once!)

[B777ER 2,484]

"A fool and his money are soon parted". For an example see; Captain Sim beta + pay full price. 

[regis9 3,999]

FWIW the captainsim L1011 was very well done...if that’s a reflection of their current direction then hopefully we’ll see good results.

[HighTowers 1,434]

26 minutes ago, regis9 said:

FWIW the captainsim L1011 was very well done...if that’s a reflection of their current direction then hopefully we’ll see good results.

Thats good to know. Whats the system depth on that model? Just wondering what to expect on the 757

 

[Steve Dra 7,574]

22 minutes ago, regis9 said:

FWIW the captainsim L1011 was very well done...if that’s a reflection of their current direction then hopefully we’ll see good results.

Won't disagree with you there and I have the L1011, waiting for the V4 release in....whenever.

Most agree that they are ok when tackling older iron without complicated FMCs and such, and the 1011 was a good release for the most part.

Let's see if they get the avionics and systems correctly working on their next modern Boeing and we'll judge from there. 

[Nighthwk 566]

5 hours ago, Steve Dra said:

Guarantee that if I buy your beta at full price, you will set a date when I'll receive the fully completed version, and every month you miss the deadline I receive 12.5% of my initial purchase price back, and after 8 months of a delayed product, I receive a full refund for a beta product I purchased that you could not deliver on a very generous completion schedule.

That’s a bit extreme, wouldn't you say? In the end, it’s your decision to buy the beta or not. They didn’t force you to, and you get whatever they want you to get as they set the terms, not you.

[thibodba57 462]

47 minutes ago, Milton Waddams said:

That’s a bit extreme, wouldn't you say? In the end, it’s your decision to buy the beta or not. They didn’t force you to, and you get whatever they want you to get as they set the terms, not you.

Nonsense. If they sale a product (beta or not) at full price they had better make progress or provide some recourse of a refund. You only need to pay a bit attention to crowd funding to know you don't expect people to pay full fare if you haven't finished work.  Otherwise these people can treat this 757 like 75%of the rest of their product line. Leave them with tons of problems that never get fully addressed.  Given their track record it would be the least they could do to show they are entering Beta sales in good faith.

[Nighthwk 566]

16 minutes ago, thibodba57 said:

 If they sale a product (beta or not) at full price they had better make progress or provide some recourse of a refund

There isn't any precedent for this, that I'm aware of, and they certainly won't be the one to set that. Of course they'll make progress, it's not a question as they're selling it as a beta meaning it's a work in progress and not a finished, to-be-abandoned product.

[Steve Dra 7,574]

1 hour ago, Milton Waddams said:

That’s a bit extreme, wouldn't you say? In the end, it’s your decision to buy the beta or not. They didn’t force you to, and you get whatever they want you to get as they set the terms, not you.

Not at all given their past history John.  The facts speak for themselves and I agree it's my decision to buy or not.  And quite simply if they can't provide me with those videos or release the NDA so their independent beta testers with good standing (and a reputation to uphold themselves) can give me a real assessment if CS has, like I said earlier, they'll stay in the kiddie pool of devs to me and won't get either my respect or money.

Your last statement "you get whatever they want you to get as they set the terms, not you" would go down in PT Barnum's all-time favorite phrases if any company could get all their customers to blindly agree to that.  In fact I get nothing unless I agree to pay them, and that is my last bargaining chip...and I won't play it until they show their full hand...after all this is a business...not a poker game.

 

23 minutes ago, thibodba57 said:

Given their track record it would be the least they could do to show they are entering Beta sales in good faith.

Agree Brian.  You would think if they were truly "turning over a new leaf" they'd bend over backwards to prove that our suspicions of lack of systems programming skill is unfounded.  Yet all they have are videos of what we KNOW they are already good at...visual modeling.

Just like every other release beforehand.  Show me a video like a professionally rated ATP flying the aircraft and I'd happily join in line with all those who are ready to blindly throw money at them again after seeing a video of throttles moving, and all the engine doors opening, Remove before flight flags waving in the breeze,  the cute flight attendant at the door, the nicely modeled passenger cabin, etc.