Julien H

[VATSIM] What have I done wrong?

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Hi everyone! I have been flying since several years now, and so I decided to try the VATSIM network. 

So I wanted to start by a little flight; London Gatwick to Nantes Atlantique (my local airport). However, I couldn't hear some of the UK's controllers / pilots, that's why I used text instead of voice. Plus it's easier for me to get used to procedures. Anyway, I request the clearance, okay, startup and pushback, okay, taxi.. ah. The controller actually stated me "TRA44, Taxi K hold short P", as shown below:

1511641652-capture.png

At that moment, I was: okay cool, it's easy it's only two taxiways from here.

That's my problem. I wasn't so sure about it, so I just followed the red line and waited at P1.

1511641911-capture23.png

What should I have done instead? Should I have waited right before turning onto Papa taxiway and then wait for the controller to tell me to continue?

Sorry if that sounds stupid or easy for you, but I really don't understand and I'm trying to improve myself at this. :)

Oh and if I'm not in the right section, please could you redirect me?

Happy flying :)

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stopped at the end of Kilo just abeam stand 130 and not at p1 like it looks like you did.

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1 minute ago, tooting said:

stopped at the end of Kilo just abeam stand 130 and not at p1 like it looks like you did.

Oh that's what I thought then! Thank you so much for the fast answer! Great continuation!

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just to be a fickle man..

1.There is no transavia 44 flight

2. Transavia dont operate to Gatwick

3. Transavia dont even operate to the UK

4. Transavia dont operate from gatwick to Nante

5. your flightplan you filed was at fl300  you need an odd level for CFMU compliance entering LFFF as there a RAD/CDR on that route a better flightlevel would have been as below at fl250

6 .you filed as (B738/H)   your not a heavy aircraft... TVL equipment codes are as follows -B738/M-SDE2E3FGIJ1RWXY/L

7. transavia use alphanumeric callsigns 

8.On a final note, as it bugs the word not allowed of me, lets say there was TRA44 in real life (which should of been filed tra044) that means someone cant use that TRA044 callsign on the proper route, as you doing some hookey LGW to NTE flight using it.

Sorry to sound horrible... cruel to be kind.

 

next time PM me, ill give you a proper route.

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, tooting said:

6 .you filed as (B738/H)   your not a heavy aircraft... TVL equipment codes are as follows -B738/M-SDE2E3FGIJ1RWXY/L

Just to be a fickle sod.

You are probably not aware that the suffix after "aircraft type" denotes RVSM/GNSS capablities. So a heavy like the 744 would actually be written as H/B744/L in the VATSIM client. "L" meaning RVSM, GNSS onboard and Mode C xpndr.

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58 minutes ago, Starbird said:

Hi everyone! I have been flying since several years now, and so I decided to try the VATSIM network. 

So I wanted to start by a little flight; London Gatwick to Nantes Atlantique (my local airport). However, I couldn't hear some of the UK's controllers / pilots, that's why I used text instead of voice. Plus it's easier for me to get used to procedures. Anyway, I request the clearance, okay, startup and pushback, okay, taxi.. ah. The controller actually stated me "TRA44, Taxi K hold short P", as shown below:

1511641652-capture.png

At that moment, I was: okay cool, it's easy it's only two taxiways from here.

That's my problem. I wasn't so sure about it, so I just followed the red line and waited at P1.

1511641911-capture23.png

What should I have done instead? Should I have waited right before turning onto Papa taxiway and then wait for the controller to tell me to continue?

Sorry if that sounds stupid or easy for you, but I really don't understand and I'm trying to improve myself at this. :)

Oh and if I'm not in the right section, please could you redirect me?

Happy flying :)

 

 

You are correct, in this situation, you would have taxied on "K" up to "P" and held until further ATC instructions.

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1 hour ago, tooting said:

Sorry to sound horrible... cruel to be kind.

Pete,

It's just a game. :smile:

blaustern

 

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Nothing wrong with making legitimate mistakes.  That's how you learn.

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Just to be fickle...

1 hour ago, tooting said:

1.There is no transavia 44 flight

And?

1 hour ago, tooting said:

2. Transavia dont operate to Gatwick

And?

1 hour ago, tooting said:

3. Transavia dont even operate to the UK

And?

1 hour ago, tooting said:

4. Transavia dont operate from gatwick to Nante

And?

1 hour ago, tooting said:

7. transavia use alphanumeric callsigns 

8.On a final note, as it bugs the word not allowed of me, lets say there was TRA44 in real life (which should of been filed tra044) that means someone cant use that TRA044 callsign on the proper route, as you doing some hookey LGW to NTE flight using it.

I'm not sure why you're saying it should have been TRA044; leading zeros, whilst not banned, are explicitly discouraged by ICAO and Eurocontrol so TRA44 seems perfectly fine to me. The BA976 uses BAW05DV in real life which bugs the real ATCOs -- I was talking to one of the Maastricht guys who says they've been trying to get it changed for ages but BA won't for some reason!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for realism and doing things properly as you no doubt well know, but come on, let's look at the big picture here. The callsign/livery someone flies in is not really a big deal is it, especially when they are keen to learn from their procedural errors. It's no wonder people get scared at the idea of flying online when people start sounding off about this sort of irrelevance.

@Starbird - you already have your answer, but well done -- by posting this not only have you learnt something, some others reading this will likely not make the same mistake. Welcome to VATSIM!

For what it's worth -- and it would be very interesting to know whether this would have made any difference to the way you interpreted the instruction -- the controller's R/T is actually very slightly off in that strictly the phraseology should be "hold short of..." (as in, "taxi via K, hold short of P").

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Just now, skelsey said:

Just to be fickle...

And?

And?

And?

And?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for realism and doing things properly as you no doubt well know, but come on, let's look at the big picture here. The callsign/livery someone flies in is not really a big deal is it, especially when they are keen to learn from their procedural errors. It's no wonder people get scared at the idea of flying online when people start sounding off about this sort of irrelevance.

1

Hallelujah. Some common sense. Thank you, Simon.

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Hi Simon,

 

Good info as always. Can I ask why controllers don't like call signs beginning with zero? I hadn't,t heard of that.

cheers

neil

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The problem with leading zeros in alphanumeric callsigns is that there is a history of controllers mistakenly transposing them (e.g. BAW027 may be mistakenly referred to as BAW207). As I say though, it's not banned and some flights do use them!

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2 hours ago, skelsey said:

The problem with leading zeros in alphanumeric callsigns is that there is a history of controllers mistakenly transposing them (e.g. BAW027 may be mistakenly referred to as BAW207). As I say though, it's not banned and some flights do use them!

From time to time I'll have the same or similar numeric numbers as another aircraft on frequency and will be advised by ATC that there is another aircraft on frequency with a similar number.  This can really be a problem when I am on UHF and the other aircraft is on VHF.  It was not unusual to have a zero in my military call sign and it would be used by the controller which would be Texas zero five one. I'm not sure how it is reflected on the ATC data strip? In your example above it is my understanding that BAW027 and BAW27 would be different call signs. :smile:

blaustern

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6 hours ago, tooting said:

just to be a fickle man..

1.There is no transavia 44 flight

2. Transavia dont operate to Gatwick

3. Transavia dont even operate to the UK

4. Transavia dont operate from gatwick to Nante

5. your flightplan you filed was at fl300  you need an odd level for CFMU compliance entering LFFF as there a RAD/CDR on that route a better flightlevel would have been as below at fl250

6 .you filed as (B738/H)   your not a heavy aircraft... TVL equipment codes are as follows -B738/M-SDE2E3FGIJ1RWXY/L

7. transavia use alphanumeric callsigns 

8.On a final note, as it bugs the word not allowed of me, lets say there was TRA44 in real life (which should of been filed tra044) that means someone cant use that TRA044 callsign on the proper route, as you doing some hookey LGW to NTE flight using it.

Sorry to sound horrible... cruel to be kind.

 

next time PM me, ill give you a proper route.

 

cheers

 

 

 

 

 

If you're a controller at LGW lemme know when your next on, I'll be UAL0003 flying circuits in a 747. Just keeping it real brah!

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I agree with Simon that the response in question was over the top.  The same information could have been relaid in a far more tactful manner, something meant to help/mentor a new VATSIM pilot. Instead it came off as highly critical and coming from someone who found an opportunity to demonstrate a higher level of knowledge than someone new to the network and thinks themselves above someone new. Even if that isn't how it was meant, it's certainly how it came off  It's all in how we chose to convey our thoughts.

 

5 hours ago, Bluestar said:

It's just a game.

It's really difficult to know what blaustern meant when he said "it's just a game", as that term, like many others, is subjective.  Depending on what blaustern meant the term "game" to mean, I might well agree with him, but trying my very best taking his comment in context I find that I have to disagree (though I wish it were not so).

I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of VATSIM and VATSIM forum users (ATC and Pilots) would disagree with the term "game" being applied to VATSIM, but especially those who once used one of many Multiplayer servers and either wanted to avoid those who flew on the server to goof off and do and say whatever they wanted regardless of how it affected others, or simply came to VATSIM for a higher, realism based experience - and here is our line of demarcation. If one considers that a higher, realism based experience is a game (my disagreement comes if the term is meant to imply that VATSIM anything less than that), then it's a game.

With the above in mind, there are some on the network who either aren't aware or fail to keep in mind that each and every day real life aviation is full of people learning, making mistakes, humor, very nice people and jerks, clashing personalities, friendliness - all the things we see in other environments.  We should certainly expect all those things to happen on VATSIM, which makes the network more realistic rather than detracting from the experience.

My very best to everyone.

 

 

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A quick look at transavia on the nop yesterday shows they use 001 and 002 not tra01 and tra02

We brought alpha numerics at virgin in 2008 or 2009 as we had an incident in the Ockham hold with the vir46 from jfk and the vir6 from Miami they where both in the hold at the same time and the 46 was told to descent the 6 took the instruction by mistake and nearly ploughed Into the other aircraft below. 

The ferrys have 87 callsigns and the positioners have P at the end from the positioning sector ie 71p is going to or from the vir71

At easyJet each year the 2000 alpha numerics they use get randomly generated by a guy In occ and then get sent to euro control to be tested for issues.  The ferry's and positioning flights have 9000 callsigns. 

My friend and I where talking about this yesterday in work, there's nothing more annoying when you have 2 days off, the wife is out and about and you plan to do a long Haul say lgw to mco as the vir15n in the 744, and some other dude has the callsigns and Is going say bhx to fra in the concorde.  

A mate of mine who's a approach controller at lhr and lgw on vatsim logs off when he sees people doing circuits at lhr or lgw. Because it's annoys him, he'd rather they take that malarkey to Doncaster, Prestwick, East mids or Chateroux where most people do base training stuff

Finally last week the poster boy belynz was doing a India to Heathrow flight (some 7 hours early) myself and my mate in work put his fp into the validator and it came up with 6 issues in Europe.  We also counted  4 out of India due to levels, notams and Airways closures 

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VIR has like 3 flights from Gatwick to Mickey World a day, just pick another bloody callsign if 15N is in use.

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tooting - you make some very interesting points. And it seems that you have an intriguing RW position which has allowed you to amass a wealth of knowledge. 

Regarding the OP, I think we should give him credit for taking the time to post a question and seek guidance from the more experienced simmers on this forum, including yourself. 

Maybe later down the road he'll be interested in some of the more intricate operational details. For now, we should lend a supporting hand.

Just my two cents.

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Im fairly new to vatsim (about 5 months now) which took forever to actually go thru with it. I signed up on vatsim 6 years ago. First, kudos to the OP for getting to know vatsim right out of Gatwick. Busy place to learn and intimidating. At the same time , clearly he is keen on learning and humble enough to post on here to learn from mistakes. 

However alot of the comments about exact proper procedure to the T would be such a push away to newbies. You want to increase vatsim numbers, well that certainly isnt going to do it. Not just to the OP but to anyone else thinking of joining may have just read this thread and be put off by it. Once you start getting comfortable with vatsim, its a great experience overall, but it takes time for many and there will be instances of annoyed controllers. (understandably so, as its quite stressful, when its busy and some didnt get the instructions properly or failed to execute it for a number of reasons. 

My suggestion from experience is to just be an observer at those busy hubs following taxi instructions from other aircraft,  then do some flights in far less busy places first. (ENGM,ESSA are great for that and very understanding controllers) If you want to fly in/out of EGKK or EGLL EHAM EDDF etc, try to find a less busy time initially.  Use a good flight planner that is tied to vatsim so that it is filed properly. I use simbrief and dont seem to have much issues. Just put in the comments section of the FP that you are "new to vatsim". Hopefully they will be more forgiving and helpful that way.

All the best. 

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1 hour ago, B777ER said:

VIR has like 3 flights from Gatwick to Mickey World a day, just pick another bloody callsign if 15N is in use.

no it doesnt.  thats only 2 days a week in the summer when we put the extra one on with the extra vegas too.  Normally its only the 15 and 27.

 

 Capture2.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, nisx said:

tooting - you make some very interesting points. And it seems that you have an intriguing RW position which has allowed you to amass a wealth of knowledge. 

Regarding the OP, I think we should give him credit for taking the time to post a question and seek guidance from the more experienced simmers on this forum, including yourself. 

Maybe later down the road he'll be interested in some of the more intricate operational details. For now, we should lend a supporting hand.

Just my two cents.

correct 18 years. and 4 airlines later.   2  short haul (bmi+gb airways) ,  One lowcost (easyjet) one long haul (Virgin atlantic) 

  I agree with high towers the newbies should practice at a smaller airport and not heathrow or gatwick.  I feel for the controllers in busy places like gatwick and heathrow that are dealing with newguys that have no idea what they are doing when they have 10 or so other a/c on their freq too.

In the 2 weeks alone ive done 2 go arounds at egkk due to newbies, last week one cutting in front while on the ils, and 2 days ago the other someone thumped it in and couldnt get off the runway and just sat there.  

 Ive also put in my post for him to pm for any flightplans, charts etc etc.  that goes for anyone on the forumn ive always said that.

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Just to be pedantic...

Fickle means "changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties or affections", see here.

...and leading zero's in callsigns are the devils work... and unnecessary.

Ian

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Just to be an ***hole...

So the OP comes here legitimately asking for advice as a VATSIM beginner and he gets told off because he doesn't follow real world procedures to the very last detail.

So, as a VATSIM beginner just as the OP, I must ask: Is VATSIM only meant for real world pilots with more than 10000 certified B747 hours? Is it not true that most airports with proper control are the big ones, because almost everyone flies airliners on VATSIM? How is a beginner supposed to get acquainted with VATSIM if not by making mistakes and having fun along the way, instead of being told how effing wrong he is? Yes, the ultimate goal is realistic immersion, but you don't get there on the first day, or first month even.

Jeez...

 

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11 minutes ago, jacf182 said:

 

So, as a VATSIM beginner just as the OP, I must ask: Is VATSIM only meant for real world pilots with more than 10000 certified B747 hours?

 

As an RW ATPL pilot with over 10000 hours I tend to stay away from Vatsim when “know it better, non RW pilots”, or OCC people who think the are pilots try to “educate” others about RW piloting.

Vatsim can be an wonderful place but like Dave said, like IRL you have the occasional character that lives in his own world.

I can only advice the OP to keep flying and trying on Vatsim and ask every question he has in the appropiate forums. Practice makes perfect. 

Happy landings in this hobby of ours.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, skelsey said:

The problem with leading zeros in alphanumeric callsigns is that there is a history of controllers mistakenly transposing them (e.g. BAW027 may be mistakenly referred to as BAW207). As I say though, it's not banned and some flights do use them!

I see, makes sense I guess. Weird why some flights carry on using them. You would think it would be more helpful and easy enough to not use them. 

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