Just Flight Vickers VC-10 released

[Alan_A 1,650]

7 hours ago, Chock said:

Well, that's kind of one of those can of worm contention points isn't it? If I turn the light switch on in my bedroom, and a light comes on, and I make a simulation of it, do I need to simulate the electrons flowing down the wire and the switching brass mechanism behind the plastic light switch facade in order to say I've modeled a working light switch? The end result is the same whether I model those wires and stuff, or if I simply write a program which polls a click point and asks, 'has the user clicked this spot?', if yes, load the light graphic, if not, do not load the light graphic...

Bravo!  This post (full text, which I didn't want to quote in full here since it's just a page back) should be stickied, or turned into an article, or otherwise nailed to the door of the church of orthodox flightsimming.  Heresy?  No, I'd say "reform..."

 

[Beardyman 604]

I would discuss with u here...

By going into 'brass and wires' Alan made a huge exaggeration of given question.

Either he did not understand real meaning of given question, or deliberately he made a fun of it.  

 

[Alan_A 1,650]

@Beardyman -

I don't want to derail this thread (which is about the JF VC-10) but briefly - I think it's legitimate to ask, as Alan (Chock) did, how much simulation is necessary?  And simulation of what?

Many of us at Avsim like deep systems simulation, but there's a cost for it, both in money and in system resources.

I've recently been flying two different piston airliners - the A2A Constellation, which simulates fuel in the primer lines, and the Manfred Jahn C-47, which uses the primer switch as an engine start trigger, but only if certain conditions (temperature, flooding) are met.

The Connie takes multiple measurements (voltage available to the starter, flow of simulated fuel, carburetor capacity, ambient temperature, operation of primer after the mixture is let in) and factors all of them in to determine the startup.  Each startup is different and it's very satisfying to go through the process with a different result each time.  

The C-47 measures voltage and then uses timers and '"if/then" logic (is there flooding?) to lead to a started/not started result.  It's not the same depth as A2A.  But it's good enough to give you the feel of a radial engine start, and it's part of a very satisfying package.  It's also freeware.

The PMDG DC-6, interestingly, also scripts the engine start, but apparently without as much flexibility as the Jahn C-47.

Three different approaches, all of which work.

I think that's what Alan is getting at when he talks about on/off lightswitch logic vs. modeling electron flow.  And I think what he means in response to your question, is that there's a middle ground possible between full systems simulation and dummy switches with no logic, which was the distinction you drew.  The third possibility is switches with some logic, but without full system logic behind them.

Much of this is relevant to the VC-10 because its modeling is intermediate, along the lines of two of my examples but not A2A (or FSL).  If you insist on FSL-level modeling, then you won't find it satisfying.  But many of us will.  

The argument is against requiring that a simulation can't be serious or worthwhile unless every last wire and tube is functional.

On that basis, the VC-10 sounds to me like it might be worth a look.    

Your mileage may vary. 

[Beardyman 604]

7 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

If you insist on FSL-level modeling

From where u got info that someone here expect or even insist for FSL quality level ???

In given question there is no word or link to A2A, PMDG or FSL, contrary - CS was mentioned which i believe is on par with JF.

 

8 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

On that basis, the VC-10 sounds to me like it might be worth a look

Absolutely, VC10 was great plane and i wish it will become great addon for our hobby.

[Alan_A 1,650]

@Beardyman -

You asked...

12 hours ago, Beardyman said:

Alan - u said that systems are modelled, are those really modelled or as in CS planes, just dummy lights but no logic behind ?

I understood you to be saying that systems could be either "really modeled" or just dummy lights with no logic.  And I assumed that "really modeled" meant "in full depth."  I might have gotten that wrong.  Apologies if so.  But I'll continue to argue that there's a middle way between the two extremes.

The A2A and Manfred Jahn (and DC-3) examples are my own - I'm more of a piston guy, so that's my frame of reference.  But yes, others (not you) were talking about CS and FSL, and there was also a conversation about CTRL+E starts vs. authentic ones, which gets us back to "how much do you need modeled?"

Fortunately for all of us, there's a wide range of answers - though not always for a particular airplane, and maybe the current VC-10 isn't hardcore enough for hardcore simmers.  Maybe the upcoming professional version will be.

[Treetops45 1,081]

A few videos up on YouTube, looks to fly, [or being flown], very smoothly.

I would be interested in finding a cutaway to look at the engineering involved in holding the 4 engines & their electrical/fuel systems etc, at the back end. 

T45

[Chock 17,769]

2 hours ago, Treetops45 said:

A few videos up on YouTube, looks to fly, [or being flown], very smoothly.

I would be interested in finding a cutaway to look at the engineering involved in holding the 4 engines & their electrical/fuel systems etc, at the back end. 

T45

See linked image below. I've highlighted the forged steel channel on this cutaway in yellow. This is the engine support beam, but as you can see, it also served as the mounting point for several control surface pulleys:

https://i.imgur.com/nR4lNw2.jpg

 

 

[Martyn JF 388]

I've uploaded a selection of higher-res, and hopefully less compressed screenshots here:

http://i.pi.gy/PE2Ww.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/eeGKm.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/Yno4Z.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/257pp.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/30RgJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/j3PvJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/JDwrk.jpg

Depending on your screen size you might need to zoom in to see them at 100%.

Thanks
Martyn

[Beardyman 604]

Appreciate Martyn

[Treetops45 1,081]

8 hours ago, Chock said:

See linked image below. I've highlighted the forged steel channel on this cutaway in yellow. This is the engine support beam, but as you can see, it also served as the mounting point for several control surface pulleys:

https://i.imgur.com/nR4lNw2.jpg

 

 

Fascinating!

Thanks Alan.

T45

[Treetops45 1,081]

26 minutes ago, Martyn JF said:

I've uploaded a selection of higher-res, and hopefully less compressed screenshots here:

http://i.pi.gy/PE2Ww.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/eeGKm.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/Yno4Z.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/257pp.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/30RgJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/j3PvJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/JDwrk.jpg

Depending on your screen size you might need to zoom in to see them at 100%.

Thanks
Martyn

Very helpful. I will be getting the VC10 later today.

Have the JF DC-10 & although marketed as 'Lite', it suits my purposes, plus, [as do most JF aircraft I have], it takes the compact  WeFly Works AP/GPS pop up unit, which lets me do long flights without having to burn the eyeballs sitting on the screen.

T45

[Beardyman 604]

Martyn, is it posible to use CIVA INS with VC10 ?

[Martyn JF 388]

27 minutes ago, Beardyman said:

Martyn, is it posible to use CIVA INS with VC10 ?

Yes, it should be possible. We are currently developing our own brand-new INS for FSX/P3Dv1-4.

Thanks
Martyn

[ErichB 3,636]

1 hour ago, Martyn JF said:

I've uploaded a selection of higher-res, and hopefully less compressed screenshots here:

http://i.pi.gy/PE2Ww.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/eeGKm.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/Yno4Z.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/257pp.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/30RgJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/j3PvJ.jpg
http://i.pi.gy/JDwrk.jpg

Depending on your screen size you might need to zoom in to see them at 100%.

Thanks
Martyn

These should be your leading pics.  Can't understand why publishers and some developers don't make the effort to showcase their products to their full potential with high quality video production and pics.  It's all about the detail these days.

[G-RFRY 1,705]

Just flight put out a video yesterday on YouTube watched it and bought it.