P3D 4.1 CTD near Labrador

[downscc 1,327]

1 hour ago, Bluestar said:

I fly lots of BGSF/BIKF/ESSA to KDFW so I tend to be a little north of the trouble area. 

My last one was up there, closer to Coral Harbor YZS, on a trip to KSFO.  All stackhash means is that the application crashed without triggering an operating system exception and the operating system is providing the contents of the stack for debugging.  It doesn't point to or away from anything.  Agree however, I keep thinking it is something in the default scenery bgls like facility data. I think navaids have been pretty much ruled out.  Just guessing.

EDIT:  Update:  I had saved the P3D scenario at URTAK, just a few nm before the crash site, so I restarted P3D and loaded that scenario.  Much to my surprise I had an update notification for Couatl, the update was dated 13 Lug (July?) and this is surprising because I updated last on 14 July.  I guess Umbreto's cloud servers took a couple of days to migrate the update.  I let the update run while the flight from URTAK to LOMTA was in progress.  The flight continued past LOMTA/-127nm without a problem.  I had previously confirmed that I could reproduce the problem twice, but now problem is gone.

This is pretty good confirmation that the GSX fix resolved the problem.  Time will certainly tell.

My problem is that there is absolutely nothing in the scenery on that track between URTAK and LOMTA at 127 nm before LOMTA.  There is a FIR boundary quite some distance ahead, maybe that is it?

Not using FreemeshX.  I have Pilot's Ultimate NG mesh and Orbx NA openLC.

Edited July 16, 2018 by downscc

[BlueStar 323]

41 minutes ago, downscc said:

My last one was up there

Are you using FreemeshX?

[SteveW 1,792]

If the sim itself CTDs then it is being taken down by an attached DLL or Gauge because I've been back and forth throughout the region with no worries.

That attached DLL or Gauge may be reading faulty data at a particular area - faulty data installed into the stock sim navdata. It's possible it could be stock navdata but then that's to be proved by getting a CTD from the stock sim with a non-complex plane and scenery.

So remove dll and gauge addons, fly the stock navdata and see if it CTDs then. Another idea is that an addon airport in that area may have a stationary plane model or similar with perhaps a bad cfg. A minor fault in an addon cfg can crash the sim with a CTD and look like another app or condition causes the crash.

 

[Bardia 11]

5 hours ago, Bluestar said:

Who is "We"?  I'm not having this problem and my setup is very similar to Dan's.  I go through that area a couple of times a week at normal speed (acceleration 1.0X) and have had one CTD in the past year in this region.  I'm not convinced that my CTD was related to the problem that is being reported by some users.  

I personally appreciate Umberto's help in this CTD issue even if it doesn't effect my sim.  

“We” is all the users reporting this issue on this thread. 

[av8r172 2]

EGLL-KBOS crashed today at 4x speed approaching Labrador with the new GSX 😞 I appreciate the efforts though

It's so strange that nobody has been able to pinpoint it yet. There are 4+ decent sized threads besides this one describing exactly this: westbound trans-atlantic flights crashing near the east coast.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/521091-ntdll-error-in-p3d-v4-near-canada/

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/477563-memory-leak-over-canada/

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/531004-p3d-crashing-over-northern-canada/

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=16936.0

Edited July 17, 2018 by av8r172

[av8r172 2]

Make that 5

Maybe something in these links can help people. This latest thread seems to narrow in on FTX Vector; some people have had success disabling it.

[Bardia 11]

2 hours ago, av8r172 said:

Make that 5

Maybe something in these links can help people. This latest thread seems to narrow in on FTX Vector; some people have had success disabling it.

Nope, earlier there were reports of CTD without vector even installed. 

[Daniel Baker 20]

7 hours ago, av8r172 said:

Make that 5

Maybe something in these links can help people. This latest thread seems to narrow in on FTX Vector; some people have had success disabling it.

I've never had any vector installed but had consistent CTDs, fwiw. 

[virtuali 4,421]

Please always try not to confuse the Cause with the Effect.

When you had a CTD, IF the Effect was that you couldn't fly that area with GSX enabled, the Cause was likely a problem in the navigation database which GSX enquired, not GSX itself so, by stopping inquiring the navigation database while cruising, GSX is now able to fix a CTD that happened for THAT reason.

That doesn't mean the GSX update can auto-magically remove the Cause.

If other addons (airplane gauges for example) would access the same corrupted data, the sim WILL crash just the same, regardless of what GSX could do because, as I've said, it's was never GSX that crashed the sim (it cannot), it was the sim itself, which crashed by itself when "somebody" inquired the corrupted navdata, because that was the *real* cause.

So, assuming the CTD IS caused by corrupted navdata, either you find and fix the corrupted data, or each and every other addon that might eventually read it, would have to do the same as the latest GSX: stop reading the data in order to not being unfairly accused to cause a crash.

Of course, while GSX doesn't really need to read navdata while cruising, because it's a *ground* product, an airplane gauge or a flight planner might not be as easily patched, because they are supposed to always have access to the navdata.

Which brings back to the issue of having to act on the real Cause, which is finding if there's corrupted data somewhere in the navdata.

All of this, assuming your crash IS caused by a corrupted navigation data.

That's not something you can take it for granted. In fact, if some users found the crash related somewhat to the Vector data instead, we might simply be witnessing TWO different kind of problems and, unless you have an add-on that reads Vector data (I'm not aware of such products), the only possible fix in this case, is to check with who made the Vector data to begin with.

The only thing sure now, is that GSX, while cruising, communicates the sim only to read the airplane position/altitude/speed, to check when eventually start re-enabling itself in full, and you can be sure this operation cannot possibly cause a crash in the sim, especially one that happens on a specific area, which is clearly related to issue of the underlying scenery, which can be either navdata/airports, but also vector, landclass, etc.

Edited July 17, 2018 by virtuali

[Bardia 11]

2 hours ago, virtuali said:

Please always try not to confuse the Cause with the Effect.

When you had a CTD, IF the Effect was that you couldn't fly that area with GSX enabled, the Cause was likely a problem in the navigation database which GSX enquired, not GSX itself so, by stopping inquiring the navigation database while cruising, GSX is now able to fix a CTD that happened for THAT reason.

That doesn't mean the GSX update can auto-magically remove the Cause.

If other addons (airplane gauges for example) would access the same corrupted data, the sim WILL crash just the same, regardless of what GSX could do because, as I've said, it's was never GSX that crashed the sim (it cannot), it was the sim itself, which crashed by itself when "somebody" inquired the corrupted navdata, because that was the *real* cause.

So, assuming the CTD IS caused by corrupted navdata, either you find and fix the corrupted data, or each and every other addon that might eventually read it, would have to do the same as the latest GSX: stop reading the data in order to not being unfairly accused to cause a crash.

Of course, while GSX doesn't really need to read navdata while cruising, because it's a *ground* product, an airplane gauge or a flight planner might not be as easily patched, because they are supposed to always have access to the navdata.

Which brings back to the issue of having to act on the real Cause, which is finding if there's corrupted data somewhere in the navdata.

All of this, assuming your crash IS caused by a corrupted navigation data.

That's not something you can take it for granted. In fact, if some users found the crash related somewhat to the Vector data instead, we might simply be witnessing TWO different kind of problems and, unless you have an add-on that reads Vector data (I'm not aware of such products), the only possible fix in this case, is to check with who made the Vector data to begin with.

The only thing sure now, is that GSX, while cruising, communicates the sim only to read the airplane position/altitude/speed, to check when eventually start re-enabling itself in full, and you can be sure this operation cannot possibly cause a crash in the sim, especially one that happens on a specific area, which is clearly related to issue of the underlying scenery, which can be either navdata/airports, but also vector, landclass, etc.

Wrong - this CTD is only happening when GSX is installed. If the “Cause” was faulty sim data, we would be witnessing at least a handful of CTD reports without GSX installed or running because as you said other addons look up sim data all the time. But that is very simply not the case. No reports of that so far. And I’m not confused at all to be honest...

Edited July 17, 2018 by Bardia

[BlueStar 323]

1 hour ago, Bardia said:

Wrong - this CTD is only happening when GSX is installed. If the “Cause” was faulty sim data,

Then why isn't my sim crashing? I use GSX.

[virtuali 4,421]

1 hour ago, Bardia said:

Wrong - this CTD is only happening when GSX is installed. 

Fact the CTD happens only when GSX is installed, doesn't mean GSX is the Cause. Yes, you ARE confusing Cause with Effect, exactly as I've said.

 

Quote

If the “Cause” was faulty sim data, we would be witnessing at least a handful of CTD reports without GSX installed

Here's one:

 

Another one that ALSO shutdown Couatl:

The post continued (It didn't fit the in the quoting feature of the forum) with:

Quote

"I tried to reset and even shut off Couatl but the same happens. I decided to use Procmon to localise the source of the crash: it happens exactly when the sim loads facilities.dll above the Hudson Bay (when the file is being loaded somewhere else it is fine). Does someone know what this dll do? Actually for me it is not caused by GSX."

There you go: we DO have a least some reports of the crash happening without using GSX and even with Couatl shutdown in one case.

If the "Cause" was GSX/Couatl, then why it happens ONLY at a certain place and usually only when flying in a certain direction ?

If GSX/Couatl did something wrong, it should happen everywhere.

If it happens only in a certain area, it's should be quite obvious the real "Cause" is something related to the scenery/navdata in THAT area!

 

Quote

or running because as you said other addons look up sim data all the time. But that is very simply not the case.

Other addons MIGHT look the navigational data, that doesn't mean they do and that will *surely* result in a crash: it depends what they are doing with that data and which data they are requesting from the sim and in which way.

Just tuning a navaid might not be enough to cause a crash, but (this is an EXAMPLE), trying to read its full name (opposite to just the ID), might cause a crash if the name is somewhat corrupted, or use strange characters but, again, it's not something many add-on might do.

My reference to other addons was simply to make everybody understand that, even if now GSX doesn't read the navdata while crusing, the crash might still happen, IF there's another addon that did the same GSX used to do, because the problem is the data!

I'll make it more clear: even if NO other addon out there ever reads the data in a way that would make the sim crash, and the only one that used to do that (the latest version doesn't do it anymore while cruising) was GSX, and the only way to cause the crash was to enable GSX, the REAL cause is STILL the data!

Edited July 17, 2018 by virtuali

[Bardia 11]

18 minutes ago, Bluestar said:

Then why isn't my sim crashing? I use GSX.

Gosh this is basic logic mate, if you don’t get the crash with X installed it does not mean X is not at fault. But if you do get the crash with X not installed it does mean X is not a fault. Really really simple stuff.

[Bardia 11]

15 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Fact the CTD happens only when GSX is installed, doesn't mean GSX is the Cause. Yes, you ARE confusing Cause with Effect, exactly as I've said.

 

Here's one:

 

Another one that ALSO shutdown Couatl:

The post continued (It didn't fit the in the quoting feature of the forum) with:

There you go: we DO have a least some reports of the crash happening without using GSX and even with Couatl shutdown in one case.

If the "Cause" was GSX/Couatl, then why it happens ONLY at a certain place and usually only when flying in a certain direction ?

If GSX/Couatl did something wrong, it should happen everywhere.

If it happens only in a certain area, it's should be quite obvious the real "Cause" is something related to the scenery/navdata in THAT area!

 

Other addons MIGHT look the navigational data, that doesn't mean they do and that will *surely* result in a crash: it depends what they are doing with that data and which data they are requesting from the sim and in which way.

Just tuning a navaid might not be enough to cause a crash, but (this is an EXAMPLE), trying to read its full name (opposite to just the ID), might cause a crash if the name is somewhat corrupted, or use strange characters but, again, it's not something many add-on might do.

My reference to other addons was simply to make everybody understand that, even if now GSX doesn't read the navdata while crusing, the crash might still happen, IF there's another addon that did the same GSX used to do, because the problem is the data!

I'll make it more clear: even if NO other addon out there ever reads the data in a way that would make the sim crash, and the only one that used to do that (the latest version doesn't do it anymore while cruising) was GSX, and the only way to cause the crash was to enable GSX, the REAL cause is STILL the data!

The first case does not explicitly state that he doesn’t have GSX installed. And the second one is self-explanatory, GSX installed and used but later terminated. So still a trace of your software in the mix. 

 

The simple question that you fail to even come close to answering is, why on earth don’t other addons crash the whole sim when loading the faulty data? Surely they deal with exactly the same sort of data your software deals with. Why is it only GSX that not only fails to deal with corrupt data but also causes the entire sim to crash?

 

You got to answer this question clearly to the whole community of simmers that are paying you hard earned cash only to have their sims CTD mid-atlantic. 

[virtuali 4,421]

27 minutes ago, Bardia said:

The first case does not explicitly state that he doesn’t have GSX installed. And the second one is self-explanatory, GSX installed and used but later terminated. So still a trace of your software in the mix. 

The second case IS self-explanatory, in the way that it proves my point. Shutting down Couatl means there is NO trace of GSX when the crash happens, clearly proving the crash can happen even without GSX running.

 

Quote

The simple question that you fail to even come close to answering is, why on earth don’t other addons crash the whole sim when loading the faulty dat

Surely they deal with exactly the same sort of data your software deals with. Why is it only GSX that not only fails to deal with corrupt data but also causes the entire sim to crash?

I believe I already answered this question quite clearly in my previous reply, which you probably haven't read, or chose to ignore:

I'll repeat it again:

Other addons MIGHT look the navigational data, that doesn't mean they do and that will *surely* result in a crash: it depends what they are doing with that data and which data they are requesting from the sim and in which way.

Just tuning a navaid might not be enough to cause a crash, but (this is an EXAMPLE), trying to read its full name (opposite to just the ID), might cause a crash if the name is somewhat corrupted, or use strange characters but, again, it's not something many add-on might do.

I thought this was crystal clear.

 

Now, please, explain this:

If the "Cause" was GSX/Couatl, then why it happens only at a certain place and usually only when flying in a certain direction ? If GSX/Couatl did something wrong, it should happen everywhere. If it happens only in a certain area, it's should be quite obvious the real "Cause" is something unique related to the scenery/navdata in that area!

 

Quote

You got to answer this question clearly to the whole community of simmers that are paying you hard earned cash only to have their sims CTD mid-atlantic. 

I think I already answered in the most effective way: by CHANGING the GSX logic not stop reading navdata while cruising, so users like you won't continue to be mistakenly convinced GSX is the "Cause" of the problem, when it's clearly something wrong in that area so, we side-stepped the problem.

Have you TRIED with the latest GSX update ?

If it fixes the problem for you, like others have reported, that's fine and we'll all be happy: you can continue to be convinced the problem was "caused" by GSX ( "hey, look, they updated it, now the crash is gone, so it *was* their fault!!" ), and I won't mind that you don't seem to understand the very basic concept that, even if GSX could prevent this by stopping reading the bad that, the real cause of the problem was the bad data to begin with. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by virtuali