GTN 750 Flight Plans questions

[ShabbyLeo 3]

Hello; 

I'm very interested in using this product in P3Dv4.1 I understand it is capable of saving created flight plans for future use? Also I read that this has the capability to accept flight plans created in garmin format from flight planning software? And ability to convert flight plans to import into simulator for atc? Thanks

Matt

[RXP 2,336]

Hi Matt, yes, yes and yes!

The Reality XP GTN 750/650 Touch can import flight plans and user waypoints from your hard drive. It accepts formatted files and the latest Little Navmap build now includes additional options to specifically export a flight plans and its procedures for the Reality XP GTN in the proper file format for example.

It also stores these imported flight plans into its own managed non-volatile memory, so that you can build a route catalog.

It also offers an option to automatically save the active route as a FltSim flight plan file, ready to be loaded into the FltSim flight planner and formatted so that you can file the active route to the FltSim ATC system!

[fppilot 4,339]

5 hours ago, RXP said:

It also offers an option to automatically save the active route as a FltSim flight plan file, ready to be loaded into the FltSim flight planner and formatted so that you can file the active route to the FltSim ATC system!

Important to point out two aspects of this feature.  First, the option needs to be selected/checked in the Setup screen (shift-right-mouse click on top border of the GTN). it is under the Advanced drop down;  and second, this option, as for perhaps all of the Setup options, has to be set separately for each aircraft.

[Icon 22 11]

6 hours ago, RXP said:

latest Little Navmap build now includes additional options to specifically export a flight plans and its procedures for the Reality XP GTN in the proper file format for example.

I have  both Little NM and the GTN750. I save my FP to Garmin format but it locks the FP waypoints and strips them all from my FP. I had LNM automatically generate a KSEA to KBOS  FP Via Jetways, which had many VOR's and the GTN locked them all.

Am I missing something??

 

 

[fppilot 4,339]

7 hours ago, Icon 22 said:

I have  both Little NM and the GTN750. I save my FP to Garmin format but it locks the FP waypoints and strips them all from my FP. I had LNM automatically generate a KSEA to KBOS  FP Via Jetways, which had many VOR's and the GTN locked them all.

Am I missing something??

 

 

I have had a couple of the locked and stripped import experiences as well.  I have not had time to fully investigate why, by using a text editor to look at the file being imported, but here is my best guess. 

I have a couple of variations of the same plan to import. One works, the other does not (locked).  What I believe is happening in my case is that I pick an initial nav point, or a final waypoint, such as an intersection, that appears to be on a Low Victor Airway.  At least in the flight planning source.  In my case I believe it is that first or last waypoint that the GTN rejects, and is those in my cases are intersections.  It appears the GTN may be rejecting the plan because it and the planner disagree on whether the waypoint is on the airway(?). Or it does not meet the GTN's rule for entry onto an airway(?) 

Here is an example. Take a look in your planner at the St Louis area and find KSUS, Spirit of St. Louis airport.  It is a bit southwest of KSTL.  Now look just northeast of KSUS and find the SNDYR intersection.  Note that it is on or appears to be on Low Route airway V12. My flight plan that gets locked flows east onto V12 to V221 . The plan that locks is SUS - SNYDR - V12 - BIB - V221 - OPMUC (another intersection) - KBMG.  

The same essential flight plan of KSUS - TOY (a vor also on V12) - BIB - V221 - RACYR - KBMG imports with no problems.

I want to look at this more closely but not until after Christmas.  

[ShabbyLeo 3]

Thank you for the confirmations and extra info. I'll be checking out LNM also. Expect an order after Christmas when I have time to install.

Happy Holidays

[Icon 22 11]

3 hours ago, fppilot said:

I want to look at this more closely but not until after Christmas.  

Frank,

I'll wait, but thank you for a great response. Have a merry Christmas & New Year!

[DannyR 35]

Just imported a couple p3d flight plans that had waypoints locked.  According to the LNM folks this is caused by a disconnect between nav database information between LNM and Garmin.  They provided a way to fix it in the latest LNM update.

Info here: 

Basically, you note which waypoints were locked when imported; reopen the flight plan in LNM; change the locked waypoints to User waypoints; save and import to the GTN.  

 

Hope this helps.  It worked for me.

 

Danny

[fppilot 4,339]

I have had this happen with FSX and imports of flight plans from iflightplanner.com. I have a theory about why they are getting locked and will test it out, but not until perhaps Thursday of this coming week.

[fppilot 4,339]

19 hours ago, fppilot said:

I have had this happen with FSX and imports of flight plans from iflightplanner.com. I have a theory about why they are getting locked and will test it out, but not until perhaps Thursday of this coming week.

Okay. Found some time to look at this last night. Here is what I found. Three highly similar flight plans. One imports smoothly into the GTN, the other two lock.  The flight plans were created at http://iFlightplanner.com.  I no longer have access to the export feature of iFlightplanner as I only had a 30 day free trial.  Access to that feature is there for paid subscribers.  Here is what the flight plans look like after iFlightplanner export to GTN (.gfp) format:

FPN/RI:F:KBMG:F:RACYR.V221.BIB.V12.TOY:F:KSUS (this one loads fine)

FPN/RI:F:KBMG:F:RACYR:F:BUNKA.V221.BIB.V12.TOY:F:KSUS (locks:"unknown waypoints"; hit next; "unknown airway")

KBMG - KSUS (2)  FPN/RI:F:KBMG:F:BUNKA.V221.BIB.V12.TOY:F:KSUS (also locks:"unknown waypoints"; hit next; "unknown airway")

Note that the differences in the three flight plans appear to be due to intersection BUNKA.  The first flight plan, the one that successfully imports, calls RACYR, then V221 to BIB.  The second plan above has BUNKA added between RACYR and V221.  The third flight plan above has BUNKA as the initial intersection.

If you manually enter BUNKA as a waypoint into the GTN it indicates that name has duplicates in the database.  However it offers up BUNKA in the GR LKS USA area, which is correct.  You can have the GTN find BUNKA on a map and it accurately identifies it and also places in on V221. 

I used Notepad and edited the second flight plan above to remove BUNKA, leaving RACYR as the only intersection before calling V221.  The edited .fpl file then imports successfully.  It should since the edited file then is exactly the same as the first plan.

I then used Notepad again and this time edited the third flight plan.  I replaced BUNKA with LISLE intersection. You may see on the map below that LISLE is an intersection farther west along V221.  No other changes, the edited .fpl file imports successfully.

http://

There are no published departures for KBMG, so calling BUNKA as the first point on V221 would not seem to be a departure violation, but that plan was locking.  That is confirmed by the edit to replace BUNKA with LISLE, which is ever farther.  When RACYR is the first point that flight plan also is not getting locked.  

Here is another observation.  When the first plan above is loaded, and then activated, it expands V221 to its waypoints.  A review of those points shows that it loaded RACYR to begin, then calls for BUNKA and LISLE on the way to BIB.  So the GTN will load BUNKA from the V221 airway, but it appears the GTN will not allow BUNKA to be imported. I theorize that is because it is a duplicate in the database.

I have one additional theory to explore but FSX just crashed on me after all my fooling around and I have to reboot to verify that theory.  So stay tuned.

[fppilot 4,339]

56 minutes ago, fppilot said:

I have one additional theory to explore but FSX just crashed on me after all my fooling around and I have to reboot to verify that theory.  So stay tuned.

Posting this as a reply instead of editing the original message immediately above as some may have read the above and moved on...

Here is something conclusive.  I found that the two flight plans I could not load into the GTN 750_2 in my MilViz Baron B55, load successfully without locking into the same GTN 750_2 in my RealAir Turbine Duke v2.

Drawing on my research above and the indication of a flight plan import issue when a nav fix has a duplicate in the database, I checked my GTN 750_2 settings in the GTN setup pop-up (shift + right click on top edge of GTN).  The database setting in the GTN in my RA TDv2 was set to "North America Database". That setting in the MilViz Baron was to "Worldwide Database.   
(just another reminder that options set in the RXP GTN Settings pop-up are specific to the aircraft)

I just changed the Baron's GTN setting to "North America Database" and now the .gfp files that would not import earlier now import flawlessly.

Have no idea if what I have found is causing your import frustrations, but certainly this is something to try.  This appears to be a Garmin Trainer characteristic, and may also be a characteristic of the real world GTN's. Perhaps someone who uses a real GTN will respond.

By the way, using a GNS 530 I was able to learn that the "other" BUNKA in the Worldwide Database is at the Ivory Coast! 

And finally, my GNS 530 was able to load the same flight plan downloaded in .fpl format from Skyvector. However I believe I am using a North American database with it,.

[fppilot 4,339]

On 12/22/2017 at 2:38 PM, Icon 22 said:

I have  both Little NM and the GTN750. I save my FP to Garmin format but it locks the FP waypoints and strips them all from my FP. I had LNM automatically generate a KSEA to KBOS  FP Via Jetways, which had many VOR's and the GTN locked them all.

Am I missing something??

I have had this happen when importing a couple of flight plans into a GNS series GPS, but not yet in the GTN.  The GNS clearly advises that the import failed due to too many waypoints.  I have no idea what the upper limit is, but there is one.  Bet the GTN also has an upper limit for imports.  So if you are importing a plan with many waypoints in the navlog or long segments on airways, that could be what causes the GTN to reject.

In the GNS I learned to circumvent the issue.  I take a plan that appears like this and produces a large number (23) of interim waypoints: 
Ziran →Q144→LEWIT→Q140→ARKKK→HNK→J68→PVD

And reduce it to this, which from KSEA to KBOS looks like this, without the airway references, and only produces nine interim waypoints:
ZIRAN→LEWIT→ARKKK→HNK→J68→PVD

Once imported into the GTN, select ZIRAN in the flight plan and select Load AIrway. Load Q144 and select LEWIT. Then select LEWIT and load Q140.  The flight plan in the GTN should expand to include all the interim waypoints that were in the plan that included airways.  When expanded internally the limit is either higher or unlimited.

I pass this on with one caveat.  When I have done this for the GNS, such as a flight from St Louis to Denver, on low alt airways, I have used first and last waypoints that were VOR's.  In my Seattle to Boston example above I used Intersections.  Do not know if that will cause an issue in the GTN, but the basic technique I describe should work. May take some trial and error.  

[RXP 2,336]

Thank you for the extensive tests Frank. I've been reading your posts twice and I think I'll have to read them once more at least before being confortable with all this!

There are limits in the devices: GNS max number of flight plan waypoints is 32, but I'd bet 31 might be the maximum when importing. GTN max number is 100 but again, I'd bet 99 is the practical maximum for the import function.

The import function is internal to the GTN, not something we try to fiddle with. Therefore, any limitation when importing such as selecting a corresponding database is either a trainer only bug, or, a GTN limitation found in real units as well. 

I guess the purpose of flight plan import from file is to migrate catalogs between devices only, because Garmin has a rather developed an entire integrated flight planning tool on iPad with wireless updates which is most likely the tool of choice, therefore, the most likely to be feature-complete internally.

Ideally, I'd love we tap into the 'Connext' interface and enable all these tools in the sim version, but we have a G600/500 to release first, and some more yet unannounced products...

 

[Indy511 686]

1 hour ago, RXP said:

and some more yet unannounced products...

Hmmm... G1000?

[fppilot 4,339]

21 hours ago, RXP said:

Thank you for the extensive tests Frank. I've been reading your posts twice and I think I'll have to read them once more at least before being confortable with all this!

There are limits in the devices: GNS max number of flight plan waypoints is 32, but I'd bet 31 might be the maximum when importing. GTN max number is 100 but again, I'd bet 99 is the practical maximum for the import function.

The import function is internal to the GTN, not something we try to fiddle with. Therefore, any limitation when importing such as selecting a corresponding database is either a trainer only bug, or, a GTN limitation found in real units as well. 

I guess the purpose of flight plan import from file is to migrate catalogs between devices only, because Garmin has a rather developed an entire integrated flight planning tool on iPad with wireless updates which is most likely the tool of choice, therefore, the most likely to be feature-complete internally.

Ideally, I'd love we tap into the 'Connext' interface and enable all these tools in the sim version, but we have a G600/500 to release first, and some more yet unannounced products...

 

You may have missed on my intent.  Many of us create flight plans outside of our simulators.  i.e. not in the GTN or GNS.  I focused on the GTN because it has the internal feature to open/expand airways, much simplifying manual flight plan entry into the GTN.  When flying a long route, or flying a route populated with many waypoints, such as intersections, that ability to expand airways saves a lot of time in entry.  That GTN feature can be exploited.

My discussion of external flight planning was to that point.  Has to do with time, not so much with GTN limitations.  Many of us want weather and wind related accuracy in our flights, and thus want that in the flight plan.  So we use external planning tools, whether online sites or flight planning programs, that take into account the weather that our respective weather engines will inject into our simulators.  So we already take the time do our flight planning just ahead of the flight, and for convenience like to find a way to get the fruits of that work into the GTN without duplicating effort.  While you may have embraced the import as a way to move plans from GTN to GTN, lacking crossfill, we see also the potential to import and use the work we have already done. 

Granted that desire exists, some users will arrive here to ask you why a respective flight plan will not import. Experience so far has shown there are at least two answers.  One is that the GTN rejects a waypoint for one reason or another, and as a result rejects useable import of the plan.  RXP has no control over that. It is a function of the NAV database and the way the Garmin product handles the database and flight plans. Rules so to speak.  The other seen so far is a flight plan that has more than the maximum allowed number of waypoints, and I focused on the very useful import utility.  My message from Sunday at 8:20 PM was to address a possible workaround for those of us importing plans, not to move plans from GTN to GTN, but instead to save time or create efficiency.

Here is a great example.  A flight from KSUS, Spirit AP St. Louis, to KAPA, Centennial AP, Denver.  The predominant legs of an IFR low-enroute flight  follow victor airway V4.  A logical entry point onto V4 from a departure from KSUS is intersection CABIT. The exit from V4 is VOR TXC (Thurman), which is near the end of the planned flight. From TXC the plan would flow onward via V148 to FQF (Falcon), then KAPA.  Here is what it looks like with even two more waypoints manually added after FQF, a total of 34 waypoints plus departure and destination airports:

 CABIT V4 TXC V148 FQF V134 BINBE  STAPP  
(open window below) 

Spoiler

KSUS . KAPA 
Block Time Flight Time 
IN : ON : OUT : OFF : TOTAL : TOTAL : 
Planned Route Clearance Fuel Totals 
START : 
REMAIN : 
USED : 

Squawk Code 

Dialog box line:
CABIT V4 TXC V148 FQF V134 BINBE STAPP 

Waypoint expansion:

Waypoint  Route Altitude  wDir  wSpd  TAS  Track  TH  MH  GS  Dist  ETE  ATE  Fuel  Fuel  
. KSUS N 38°39.73' W 090°39.12'  Temp (dev)  WCA  Var  ETO  ATO  EFR  AFR  
. 8000  276°  22  110  308°  302°  303°  91  29.7  20  0.0  

. CABIT N 38°58.00' W 091°09.13'  -7°C (-8°)  -6°  +1°  20  0.0  
V4 8000  274°  22  110  281°  280°  280°  88  16.2  11  0.0  

. MEMAC N 39°01.12' W 091°29.48'  -8°C (-8°)  -2°  +1°  31  0.0  
V4 8000  271°  22  110  281°  279°  280°  88  21.4  15  0.0  

. JAGGI N 39°05.17' W 091°56.52'  -7°C (-8°)  -2°  +0°  45  0.0  
V4 8000  269°  23  110  281°  278°  278°  87  8.9  6.1  0.0  

. HLV N 39°06.81' W 092°07.69' 114.2  -7°C (-8°)  -3°  +0°  51  0.0  
V4 8000  268°  24  110  276°  274°  268°  87  25.0  17  0.0  

. YOJCO N 39°09.21' W 092°39.66'  -7°C (-8°)  -2°  -6°  1h09  0.0  
V4 8000  266°  26  110  275°  273°  273°  85  59.1  42  0.0  

. LEXIN N 39°14.28' W 093°55.35'  -7°C (-7°)  -2°  -0°  1h51  0.0  
V4 8000  274°  30  110  275°  274°  273°  80  8.9  6.7  0.0  

. LYMES N 39°14.97' W 094°06.76'  -5°C (-6°)  -0°  -1°  1h58  0.0  
V4 8000  277°  31  110  274°  275°  274°  79  29.2  22  0.0  

. MCI N 39°17.12' W 094°44.22' 113.25  -5°C (-5°)  +1°  -1°  2h20  0.0  
V4 8000  286°  34  110  257°  265°  260°  79  26.9  20  0.0  

. ROVVO N 39°11.01' W 095°17.94'  -4°C (-4°)  +8°  -5°  2h40  0.0  
V4 8000  293°  34  110  257°  267°  265°  80  12.0  9.0  0.0  

. TOP N 39°08.22' W 095°32.95' 117.8  -4°C (-4°)  +11°  -2°  2h49  0.0  
V4 8000  296°  35  110  263°  273°  268°  79  14.1  11  0.0  

. ULNAZ N 39°06.54' W 095°50.98'  -3°C (-4°)  +10°  -5°  3h00  0.0  
V4 8000  300°  34  110  263°  274°  271°  81  5.9  4.4  0.0  

. MOPPS N 39°05.80' W 095°58.46'  -3°C (-3°)  +11°  -3°  3h04  0.0  
V4 8000  302°  34  110  263°  274°  271°  81  20.8  15  0.0  

. WEVAL N 39°03.21' W 096°25.01'  -3°C (-3°)  +11°  -3°  3h20  0.0  
V4 8000  305°  34  110  263°  275°  272°  82  7.6  5.5  0.0  

. ALMAS N 39°02.23' W 096°34.72'  -3°C (-3°)  +12°  -3°  3h25  0.0  
V4 8000  306°  34  110  263°  275°  272°  83  2.3  1.7  0.0  

. DRAMA N 39°01.93' W 096°37.63'  -3°C (-3°)  +12°  -3°  3h27  0.0  
V4 8000  307°  34  110  262°  275°  271°  83  6.0  4.3  0.0  

. CEKIS N 39°01.11' W 096°45.20'  -3°C (-3°)  +12°  -3°  3h31  0.0  
V4 8000  307°  34  110  262°  275°  272°  84  11.0  7.9  0.0  

. DIVBE N 38°59.65' W 096°59.19'  -3°C (-3°)  +12°  -3°  3h39  0.0  
V4 8000  308°  33  110  262°  275°  272°  84  16.4  12  0.0  

. VASCO N 38°57.48' W 097°19.97'  -3°C (-3°)  +13°  -4°  3h51  0.0  
V4 8000  310°  32  110  262°  274°  270°  86  6.6  4.6  0.0  

. ZITIK N 38°56.49' W 097°28.40'  -3°C (-3°)  +13°  -4°  3h55  0.0  
V4 8000  311°  32  110  262°  274°  271°  87  7.0  4.9  0.0  

. SLN N 38°55.51' W 097°37.28' 117.1  -3°C (-3°)  +12°  -4°  4h00  0.0  
V4 8000  311°  31  110  280°  289°  282°  82  16.9  12  0.0  

. WESAL N 38°58.47' W 097°58.67'  -3°C (-3°)  +8°  -7°  4h12  0.0  
V4 8000  313°  31  110  280°  289°  285°  83  48.6  35  0.0  

. PUQZE N 39°06.61' W 099°00.12'  -3°C (-3°)  +9°  -4°  4h47  0.0  
V4 8000  316°  29  110  279°  288°  283°  85  57.8  41  0.0  

. HLC N 39°15.52' W 100°13.55' 113.7  -3°C (-3°)  +9°  -5°  5h28  0.0  
V4 8000  317°  31  110  277°  288°  280°  84  30.2  21  0.0  

. CUGGA N 39°19.06' W 100°52.12'  -2°C (-2°)  +11°  -8°  5h49  0.0  
V4 8000  311°  29  110  277°  285°  279°  85  22.6  16  0.0  

. DEPAY N 39°21.57' W 101°21.02'  -1°C (-1°)  +8°  -6°  6h05  0.0  
V4 8000  297°  24  110  276°  281°  274°  88  16.0  11  0.0  

. GLD N 39°23.27' W 101°41.54' 115.1  -0°C (-0°)  +4°  -6°  6h16  0.0  
V4 8000  281°  21  110  285°  284°  272°  89  22.8  15  0.0  

. EHVER N 39°29.21' W 102°09.94'  -0°C (+0°)  -1°  -12°  6h32  0.0  
V4 8000  258°  22  110  285°  280°  273°  90  12.3  8.2  0.0  

. FLAGG N 39°32.37' W 102°25.34'  1°C (+1°)  -5°  -7°  6h40  0.0  
V4 8000  250°  23  110  285°  278°  271°  90  38.0  25  0.0  

. TXC N 39°41.90' W 103°12.90' 112.9  1°C (+1°)  -7°  -7°  7h05  0.0  
V148 8000  240°  22  110  270°  264°  252°  91  25.6  17  0.0  

. BORDR N 39°41.83' W 103°46.04'  2°C (+3°)  -6°  -12°  7h22  0.0  
V148 8000  245°  19  110  270°  266°  258°  92  7.6  5.0  0.0  

. LIMEX N 39°41.78' W 103°55.91'  4°C (+4°)  -4°  -8°  7h27  0.0  
V148 8000  249°  18  110  270°  266°  258°  93  31.9  20  0.0  

. FQF N 39°41.41' W 104°37.26' 116.3  4°C (+4°)  -3°  -8°  7h47  0.0  
V134 8000  257°  11  110  265°  265°  254°  99  15.2  9.2  0.0  

. BINBE N 39°40.18' W 104°56.84'  5°C (+5°)  -1°  -11°  7h56  0.0  
. 8000  247°  6  110  132°  135°  127°  112  6.2  3.3  0.0  

. STAPP N 39°36.04' W 104°50.91'  5°C (+5°)  +3°  -8°  7h59  0.0  
. 8000  239°  6  110  181°  184°  176°  107  1.8  1.0  0.0  

. KAPA N 39°34.21' W 104°50.96'  5°C (+5°)  +3°  -8°  8h00  0.0  

Obviously that will not import.  It has at least one too many waypoints over the max allowed (31 or 32).

But here is the other method.  After completing and perhaps printing the full V4 flight plan. Dumb down the flight planner's dialog box to this by removing references to the airways, then export the plan from the flight planning tool.  The result is only (5) interim waypoints.  This specifically for import:

CABIT TXC FQF BINBE STAPP

The result is as follows:

Spoiler

 KSUS . KAPA 
CABIT TXC FQF BINBE STAPP Clearance

Waypoint  Route Altitude  wDir  wSpd  TAS  Track  TH  MH  GS  Dist  ETE  ATE  Fuel  Fuel  
. KSUS N 38°39.73' W 090°39.12'  Temp (dev)  WCA  Var  ETO  ATO  EFR  AFR  
. 8000  274°  22  110  308°  302°  303°  91  29.7  20  0.0  

. CABIT N 38°58.00' W 091°09.13'  -7°C (-8°)  -6°  +1°  20  0.0  
. 8000  271°  22  110  278°  277°  278°  88  562.9  6h40  0.0  

. TXC N 39°41.90' W 103°12.90' 112.9  -8°C (-8°)  -1°  +1°  6h59  0.0  
. 8000  239°  22  110  270°  264°  252°  90  65.1  42  0.0  

. FQF N 39°41.41' W 104°37.26' 116.3  2°C (+3°)  -6°  -12°  7h42  0.0  
. 8000  256°  11  110  265°  265°  254°  99  15.2  9.2  0.0  

. BINBE N 39°40.18' W 104°56.84'  5°C (+5°)  -1°  -11°  7h51  0.0  
. 8000  244°  6  110  132°  135°  127°  112  6.2  3.3  0.0  

. STAPP N 39°36.04' W 104°50.91'  5°C (+5°)  +3°  -8°  7h54  0.0  
. 8000  236°  6  110  181°  184°  176°  106  1.8  1.0  0.0  

. KAPA N 39°34.21' W 104°50.96'  5°C (+5°)  +3°  -8°  7h55  0.0  

This flight plan, when exported from a compliant flight planning tool to .gfp format, is short and easily imports into the GTN.  Once imported, you  simply load the flight plan in the GTN, click on the first waypoint, CABIT , add in the V4 airway and the exit from V4 (TXC), and the GTN internally expands to include all the waypoints that appear in the longer version above.  A very significant time savings!

BTW, I expanded the flight plan with a couple of waypoints after FQF just to increase the number to (34). The GTN may not be able to import a plan with that many waypoints, but it can clearly hold a plan with that many, or more.  In fact adding the RNAV LVP 35R approach to  the plan in the GTN adds another (5) waypoints for a total of (39).  That plan Stores, and Loads just fine.