Slick9

losing altitude during sharp turns...

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Hi Jim - generally I fly the crosswind and downwind @  ~200 kts w/ F1 - just before turning base I slow to 180 and go to F5 and continue from there.

 

Richard Bansa

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3 hours ago, Slick9 said:

Hi Jim - generally I fly the crosswind and downwind @  ~200 kts w/ F1 - just before turning base I slow to 180 and go to F5 and continue from there.

 

Richard Bansa

Ummm, seems a little fast - unless you're deliberately loading normal Pax and Freight.

Do you know of the Chrono 45 second "past the Threshold" pattern Procs?

If not - research.

 

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I've never heard of the Chrono 45 Second procedure Jim, I'll do some digging and learn some more. I'm always looking to learn more about the way "the professionals" do it.  Thanks for the heads up

 

Richard Bansa

 

 

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1 hour ago, Slick9 said:

I've never heard of the Chrono 45 Second procedure Jim, I'll do some digging and learn some more. I'm always looking to learn more about the way "the professionals" do it.  Thanks for the heads up

 

Richard Bansa

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

I have contracted Flu since yesterday so am feeling proper rough.

However, take a look at this resource about Base Training and "bashing" circuits in the airframe of your choice; in our case the mighty T777.

I'm sure Skelsey (who knows much more than I) and others can chime in and do a much better job than I at explaining but the essentials are below in the schematic. It's all about energy control.

 

As a rule; start the chrono at the threshold of your selected RWY as you pass on the downwind leg. Reduce KIAS, etc, throw gear down. Speed down.

1c645.png

Wonderful film here - one of my favourites: (Yes, I know it's an A330 but the principles are identical - but I warrant you'll learn more about bashing base training than any instructor can throw at you just by being in the cockpit with these Swiss Air Captains/ SFO chaps)...plus, it's a lovely film. 

"Fifty"

"Forty"

"Thirty"

"Twenty... Retard"

"Ten"

Clang...

"Stand Throttles Up, Flaps 10"

"GO!"

"TOGA"

"Rotate"

(Rinse and repeat)

 

 

Clear Skies. (and don't get this bloody flu)

 

 

 

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Thanks for this tip Jim, if i recall correctly this diagram, or something like it is in the FCOM.  I will definitely check the video out.  I can see one of the big difference between what I'm doing and what the manual suggests - I'm turning base w/ FLAPS 5, and per the manual, it should be FLAPS 15.  

One thing that confused me was places like San Francisco where ATC routinely keeps the heavies at 1180kts til about 5 or 6 miles out. (per my listening to Live ATC).  I guess one difference could be that the aircraft going into KSFO are loaded, and when flying a pattern the aircraft is generally empty.

Jim make sure you get ample rest man, the flu is scary this year!!!! Feel better soon!!

 

Richard Bansa

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9 minutes ago, Slick9 said:

Thanks for this tip Jim, if i recall correctly this diagram, or something like it is in the FCOM.  I will definitely check the video out.  I can see one of the big difference between what I'm doing and what the manual suggests - I'm turning base w/ FLAPS 5, and per the manual, it should be FLAPS 15.  

One thing that confused me was places like San Francisco where ATC routinely keeps the heavies at 1180kts til about 5 or 6 miles out. (per my listening to Live ATC).  I guess one difference could be that the aircraft going into KSFO are loaded, and when flying a pattern the aircraft is generally empty.

Jim make sure you get ample rest man, the flu is scary this year!!!! Feel better soon!!

 

Richard Bansa

Go here to practice Base Training. LFLX. It's where we all go in Europe. Don't try and practice at a busy airfield, odd, unpredictable METAR, etc.

Base Training feels like a big a deal - it feels like it is but it isn't.

The glory of base training is that you'll get better and better at "hand Flying" the 777

You'll get used to the "nod" (porpoising) that the 777 does when heading into a slight head/ side wind on final (she's trying to cross reference  her FBW A/T with ALT)

You'll get familiar with her tendency to "dive" if you ease back pressure on the yoke too early before you've set final Flaps. You'll learn that  you get her under the thumb when you bash the Gear Down.

You'll learn she's "Ground Shy" in the last 400' AGL.

You'll learn to love her. Just flip the A/P off, and trust your feelings..."Pull back stick; cows get smaller, push stick forward; cows get bigger"

She's a Cessna 172 - just bigger.

PMDG have done a truly magnificent job - and it's all there for you to connect with as a pilot.

 

 

 

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The airspace around my home is full of Navy T44 King Air B90s, young Ensigns learning to fly.  The local pattern they fly is similar but there is no base; rather, at the mark past the key point they start a constant radius descending turn from downwind and roll out on final over the lights.  Our coastal bend frisky winds add significant challenge in maintaining the sink rate and bank angles to line up correctly.  I can do it in our C-414 but have not yet figured out how to do it in the PC simulator due to the restricted viewing angles available and lack of the seat of the pants.

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6 hours ago, ganter said:

I'm sure Skelsey (who knows much more than I) and others can chime in and do a much better job than I at explaining

Very kind of you to say so but not much to add really - the only T7 flying I have done was a few hours over a decade ago when the Simfest World Flight sim was a 777 (the Jumbo and more recently the A320 are my 'types') so cannot add much 777-specific advice --  the FCTM diagram and your comments sum it up very well! 

All I would say in general terms is just to be aware that during the touch and go it will not always be possible to stop safely in the event of a problem so go/stop is very much a judgement call (in real life for the Training Captain of course). Also it is wise to stand the thrust levers up reasonably early so as to maintain speed above Vmcg during the 'roll' in case of engine failure.

6 hours ago, Slick9 said:

One thing that confused me was places like San Francisco where ATC routinely keeps the heavies at 1180kts til about 5 or 6 miles out. (per my listening to Live ATC).  I guess one difference could be that the aircraft going into KSFO are loaded, and when flying a pattern the aircraft is generally empty.

Remember that there is a world of difference between operating as a commercial flight in to a busy airport (where ATC will be keen to encourage you to keep the speed up - possibly unreasonably so - in order to maintain high flow rates (the faster you get one aeroplane in the faster you can get the next one in and therefore the more you can land) and operating as a non-revenue training flight at a quieter airfield where you are flying visual circuits and not being packed in to a sequence with dozens of other aircraft.

I spend the vast proportion of my simming time nowadays instructing on our basic flying course at BAV. I find that people have a curious tendency to want to go steaming around the circuit in the C172 at 2400rpm and 110 KIAS and are subsequently perplexed at how difficult it is to fly consistent, stable approaches and get all the checks done etc whilst conforming to the normal circuit dimensions. A small amount of guidance soon has them flying downwind at 80 kt or so, first stage of flap out abeam the threshold, second stage and 70 kt on base and then full flap and 65 kt on final and lo and behold, everything falls in to place nicely with no rush.

Likewise in a jet - there is no need to go haring round the circuit. It's just storing up problems for yourself - you just end up rushed, with a huge amount of energy to bleed off, flying ginormous circuits or all of the above. In the Jumbo IIRC a normal training circuit would be flown at around 165 kt downwind and in the A320 170 kt downwind is about average.

Take your time and give yourself time to think and execute properly - and for what it's worth, don't be afraid to make use of the automatics on downwind for a moment to give yourself thinking space to 'debrief' and consider how the previous approach and landing went and what might be improved this time.

5 hours ago, downscc said:

The local pattern they fly is similar but there is no base; rather, at the mark past the key point they start a constant radius descending turn from downwind and roll out on final over the lights.

The RAF fly oval circuits over here as well; I think it is perhaps easier for spacing when arriving as a formation (after, of course, the customary fast jet 'run in and break' - 420+ kt and 1000 ft at 'initials' then a maximum rate turn to downwind whilst throwing everything out in order to be slowed down and configured before the turn to final).

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