Oculus Rift

[Turbine777 13]

Just my own input on VR.

Thiago has not been wrong yet and has perfectly stated my perception. Since FS2000 I lived through my cockpit builder stage (spent $11k+). Later went through my multi monitor era, and now cannot imagine anything better than VR. Personally I choose Oculus Rift over vive, and Thiago is 100% correct in no Oculus v2 until 2019. They do have a cordless one that will temp people to get, but it's not as good as the corded, other than it being wireless. Like many people I watched videos on youtube but there is absolutely NO WAY to record the experience. I have yet to experience PMDG in VR, but the A2A 172 and Duke B60 is heavenly bliss. I cannot (no one can) explain how real it seems unless you witness it. The first time you're placed in the cockpit of a C172 and have an airliner roll on by and you turn to see it in actual size, or when you duck a tad and look over your full size wing. I have several thousand dollars of addons and wouldn't bat an eye at not using any of them anymore if they chose not to support VR. It's that good. Price is crazily low. As Thiago stated, it's less than half and you actually get a lot more. For those considering which to get, know that Oculus, Vive, and I'm sure the rest use the same components for the most part, but Oculus is big brother. They know the next gen parts to make the improvements needed to make it a worthy v2 aren't going to be readily available until the end of the year. Others will use their own software perhaps to upscale, but I've messed with many and it's crazy to compare VR to a monitor's resolution. It's not at all the same experience and can't imagine anyone that has used it to not see that. 4k? Haha, not likely until later. Anyone stating otherwise are not be truthful and are doing what all manufacturers have done since the wheel, and that's gimmicking up to what the market is asking for. Like when "doublespace" (software) said you got double the hard drive space. No one could top the current hard drive capacity back then and Maxtor did overnight, only not to tell people they were getting a normal size drive with compression software. It certainly will be nice when it happens, but spoil yourself now unless your only money is allowance. You could be dead tomorrow and if I had the money I would buy every simmer out there VR just so they could share my enthusiasm about it, knowing they have no clue how great it is.

 

Lastly, I will explain a couple things that VR did to change simming for me that 6' of monitor never could. When landing, you are taught to look far down the runway and beyond. As you would in driving a car in not looking straight down on the road. No matter what you read, you will never get the feel of what they mean until VR. Steep turns is HUGE. Steep turns can finally be practiced correctly. You can easily do a steep turn once comfortable in an actual aircraft without ever looking at your gauges and without dropping more than a few feet. Simming on a monitor is nothing like VR and VR I can finally steep turn all day with the same ease as the real thing. Turning on a point is another one. Even with triple screens and track IR, it lacks a certain feel. VR it's easier of course, but your also seem to feel all the other factors (yaw, elevation changes, speed). All from what VR tells your senses. IFR is better in my opinion because in the real world it's easy to not trust your instruments because the way the clouds look. Never on a monitor did I get too disoriented. I've heard many people complain about IFR but it's much more realistic in my opinion. In a real aircraft (even a crowded 152) you will lean in. Same with VR. Blurring is there, but it's far from a deal breaker for me. When you lean into a gauge and see it's many working layers, it's just awesome. Seeing the GTN750 in VR is also mind blowing every time. I feel like I own the real thing.

 

There are many things to get used to and I use controllers and the keyboard. Immersion for is not blown for even tipping my headset to find something. It was at first and now I have to do it much less, but if I do it isn't at all an issue. My personal main gripe is night lighting action. Headlights and streetlamps have an annoying flicker at times. I use a few addons though like PTA, ENVIR, etc so I could be making it worse.

I have had a random friend come over for the last few months from work to show them the VR experience. They've freaked. I save the flight sim for last and take off from KTEX in the A2A C172. They are all at their loudest when I go wheels up! One friend tipped right over and face planted my floor. I have to keep telling people that if it gets too much, to close their eyes. It's that real that you feel as if you were on a moving platform.

 

Anywho, that's my zero two!

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Dan,

An incredible and emotional response.  I loved it.

I do not think I need any further convincing to join the VR brigade but with my system of controls, (Saitek trim wheel, yoke, rudder pedals and extra throttle quadrant)  I believe I want mouse input for clicking switches instead of using controllers.  I know that this support is coming in XPlane 11 native VR support, but, I do not know if this is going to be practical and can not quite get my head around how the final system will work.

I cannot see me using VR for anything other than flight simming as I want to be firmly in my seat (with seat belts???) as I am getting a wee bit doddery in my old age LOL. I am also unsure whether or not the disorientation or motuion sickness is going to be relevant.  Can someone convince me otherwise please and also respond to my theory that the mouse is going to be better than controllers particularly in the preflight and use of the FMC etc is concerned.

I also do not know if there will be any requirement for add ons (ortho4xp)  etc.

Your post though, has finally convinced me to go the whole hog and make the investment as soon as it is financially viable and I thank you for that.

Regards to all

Tony

[Turbine777 13]

4 hours ago, himmelhorse said:

Dan,

...I cannot see me using VR for anything other than flight simming...

Tony

Two letters and one word for you, Tony, and with a high chance this post will be deleted and I will be expelled forever from the PMDG user forum... VR PORN.

Since I got the Oculus Rift and discovered a rather incredible app (SLR), I am more than a happy camper. Since VR Porn I have kicked out my wife, stopped seeing my girlfriends, and made tons of money from co-workers in being a VR Pimp. :)

*The above is a joke of course, but if I had a wife, she would now be second :)

 

Ok, other than that (that incredibly awesome thing), I love the education stuff more than the games. I have about 30 paid games. The absolute BEST is a free app/game, called; "Rapid Fire - A Brief History of Flight". That alone will blow your socks off. You stand on the tarmac and get some sweet fly-byes from the Wright bros plane to the latter. The Concorde flybye at it's maximum speed is worth admission alone. I sim late, after a very labor intensive day and laying in bed, so no where for me to tip, haha. Driving games are also incredible. Dirt is fully support as are many other great driving titles (No GTA though yet). The educational apps are great. From traveling in blood vessels throughout the body to going on the first trip to the moon (that one is about $9 usd). The growth of a fetus in the womb, etc, etc, etc. It's just mind boggling. I can't believe how great kids will have it in learning, and just happy to be alive in this day and age to see it. Finally a 64bit sim and VR. I didn't even ask for that much and we now have it. Google earth alone has taken me away from reality for hours on end in VR. A must for any VR'er is Virtual Desktop. I don't use it for pretending to be at my computer, but it has some features that some don't know about, like the video player. Youtube has tons of 360° videos. You can paste in a URL and it will download the video and then you can experience the video in VR. Fly with the Blue Angels! Take a trip with me on my instruction flights in getting my PPL (to come), many others and millions more by the time your get to this sentence. Watching movies is great too. I have a Samsung 4k TV hanging at the foot of my bed and love it, but in VR, and even though it's far from 4k, I prefer it. I can even change my environment. AND, I can lay in bed while watching it. I always wanted to be a bartender and bought a bartending game that I can prepare and serve drinks. I'm an old fan of Nintendo's Mike Tyson's Punch out so got a boxing game that will leave you sweating before round 2. A mountain climbing game that will indeed leave you sore in the morning. None of this is exaggeration. The Oculus was once $600+ alone, now it comes with Oculus Touch (which once cost $200), all for only $399. The touch is two hand controllers that all the games I mentioned use. Not at all for simming, but maybe someday. I tried them but prefer the mouse and keyboard shortcuts. I still wouldn't use them over what you already have. Oh, the Titanic is another great app I just got. Do you like the ocean? I have 3 great apps for underwater exploration. The sky is great, but the ocean is 2/3rds our rock we live on. Did I mention VR porn? :P

All in all, you will be very surprised just how much you use VR for. Simming is a quantum leap over what it was before VR, but if you're a simmer, you like brain activity type of anythings, and educational apps (most are free) and things like VR Chess might even have you not open your hangar door.

 

I prefer mouse. In fact, I will most likely be alone on this, but even though I do own a program (what most VR/Simmers prefer) called Flyinside, I don't use it. I have my reasons and will revisit it, but in a nut shell it allows you to bring outside apps, charts, maps, browser, etc, into your aircraft without taking the headset off. MOST reviews I watched for saying it was a must have are pre-p3dv4.1, the point one being the kicker. I got back into it as 4.1 was hitting, so in comparison I prefer the raw default p3d than it. I should also mention I'm a tad of an overboard simmer. I have a yearly subscription to Foreflight (navigation, flight planner, weather, ebag, etc, used by real pilots) connected to the sim so I must remove my VR to see it on my ipad. The immersion isn't broke because it is immersive in it's own rights.

 

As for motion sickness goes, I don't during simming, but have felt sea sick in being in a shark cage in one of my ocean experiences. If rollercoasters make you sick then a VR experience in one will be a close second. Some apps (experiences) make you move your head around a lot.and you will experience a "break in" period. It will be harmless and you'll indeed muster through it to remain where it brings you, but you will also be happy to take the headset off when the time comes. I do highly recommend, and joking aside, not driving right after using it when you first get it. Odd as it sounds, it's so realistic for some, that it can have minor lasting effects that can even give you a very temporary false sense of reality once you unplug, haha. Not so much vertigo but a more heightened ability to control your balances that may make you walk or see things funny. Again, it's temporary and it has the bonus of getting the result of a six pack of suds would get you without costing you any coin!

 

Just be sure when you get it you download the free "Rapid Fire - A Brief History of Flight". It is short, but it alone was worth the price of admission!

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Dan,

WOW.  Thank you.

A semi final question and I do not know whether or not you can answer this one.

P3Dv4+ or XPlane?  I ask this because I think I prefer the Ortho4xp scenery that I can download to the ORBX (an unknown for me and I am only going by screenies I see here) 

A difficult question because I very definitely prefer P3D Aircraft (PMDG, IFly Quality Wings etc) to the XPlane ones. I am very unsure if VR is going to be absolutely great with scenery. Nor do I know which I would prefer ... great aircraft cockpits or the outside scenery with VR.  Another thing I am investigating (unsuccessfully at the moment) is, if I use Orthoxp scenery, do I have to download add on airports (payware or freeware).  I once had a flight out of Brisbane and did not recognise the place unless it was based on something that was built in the 1500s.

This is quite important because I fly mainly in Australia and Indonesia.  Both these countries do NOT suffer from tooooo many scenery add-ons and particularly so with XPlane.

So, clarification of these points would be great but probably will NOT alter my decision to eventually go VR

Thanks for your incredible response again.

Regards

Tony

 

[kdfw__ 539]

today got the powered displayport to hdmi2.0 dongle and plugged in the cv1: simply amazing.  

flying fighter jets fast and low, got sensation of motion during hard turns.  the pmdg747 vc is stunning, just like sitting the real cockpit, the sense of height over the tarmac...

resolution is not bad at all, perfect for hand flying.

now on to optimizing the setup and enjoy the immersion.  

 

[OzWhitey 3,353]

VR has already changed flightsim forever, for those willing to spend the time learning how to use it properly.

i flew near 100% of the time in 2017 with the oculus dk2 or cv1.

a couple of comments re: using vr with Pmdg (I fly mostly 737 and 747, ocassionally 777. Pmdg is currently used for around 60% of my vr sim time).

- voice control adds a great deal to immersion and usability. Get voice Attack, some decent voices to got with it and spend some time setting it up.

- hardware with vr. You don’t need a great deal of hardware for most of the functions you use in flight. Buttons on your yoke/joystick and throttle can fill in for most (flaps, gear, trim). 

- I have a hone 737 cockpit, but I use a desk for be flying. Mouse is still occasionally useful.

- a hardware efis and MCP is not essential, but adds to immersion. I use the cpflight units in vr. Just position them exactly where they apparently are in the vr cockpit. 737 mcp works ok for 747, though buttons arent quite where you expect them. 

- I have a couple of hardware CDUs, but I so far don’t use these in VR - just the mouse. Can do CDU preflight with the goggles on, but frequently take them off just for this bit.

- haven’t found any other hardware useful to date. Use a desk mounted throttle, rather than my proper 737 Unit. Still experimenting, though.

I must say that the immersion of reaching out with your hand in vr and being able to manipulate controls on a hardware MCP is pretty cool.

 

[OzWhitey 3,353]

11 hours ago, OzWhitey said:

VR has already changed flightsim forever, for those willing to spend the time learning how to use it properly.

i flew near 100% of the time in 2017 with the oculus dk2 or cv1.

a couple of comments re: using vr with Pmdg (I fly mostly 737 and 747, ocassionally 777. Pmdg is currently used for around 60% of my vr sim time).

- voice control adds a great deal to immersion and usability. Get voice Attack, some decent voices to got with it and spend some time setting it up.

- hardware with vr. You don’t need a great deal of hardware for most of the functions you use in flight. Buttons on your yoke/joystick and throttle can fill in for most (flaps, gear, trim). 

- I have a hone 737 cockpit, but I use a desk for be flying. Mouse is still occasionally useful.

- a hardware efis and MCP is not essential, but adds to immersion. I use the cpflight units in vr. Just position them exactly where they apparently are in the vr cockpit. 737 mcp works ok for 747, though buttons arent quite where you expect them. 

- I have a couple of hardware CDUs, but I so far don’t use these in VR - just the mouse. Can do CDU preflight with the goggles on, but frequently take them off just for this bit.

- haven’t found any other hardware useful to date. Use a desk mounted throttle, rather than my proper 737 Unit. Still experimenting, though.

I must say that the immersion of reaching out with your hand in vr and being able to manipulate controls on a hardware MCP is pretty cool.

 

 

[avhpilot 155]

On 18-1-2018 at 1:09 AM, Turbine777 said:

if I had the money I would buy every simmer out there VR just so they could share my enthusiasm about it, knowing they have no clue how great it is.

How true this is! Feel the same way.

Part of the problem something so incredibly mind blowingly frigging fantastic like this is not picking up in the community more rapidly is that the youtube vloggers are incapable of sharing this. It's just impossible I'm afraid. 

I remember the first time i was actually sat in the NGX wearing the Rift. It was really bad timing as it was almost bedtime and needed to get up early the next morning for work. I was PERPLEXED. I just could not leave the cockpit anymore and step outside back into the real world and do the sensible thing an go to sleep. Adrinaline levels had risen and needless to say i have not been able to sleep that night. That experience, that image, haunted me for the next few days. I was actually in a real 737 cockpit ! I really was. That is how it felt and how it still feels today albeit without the same ridiculous amount of adrenaline levels but that's just because a human being gets used to its new set of rules, the new game changing laws. Same reason why there is no possibility to go back to 2D flying anymore. Not even with all the wide screens in the world. Not even if they're all curved and not even if Track-IR would work outside its current boundaries.

All arguments like not being able to interact quickly enough with the controls in the cockpit. or the bluriness, or the lack of high resolution etc, they all melt away rapidly like wet snow as soon as you've experienced this.

My rig is 8 yrs old. When starting the oculus software i'm constantly reminded of not meeting the minimum specs. I have a GTX780 and only USB2.0 ports. But still... it works adequatly with FSX:SE+FlyInside+PMDG's 737NGX, 777 and 747.

The best PMDG VR experience for me is with the 737. That is just a masterpiece. That cockpit is the easiest on FPS and the brightest, perhaps because the windows are bigger? Reading from gauges when leaning forward is breathtaking as is just looking at, well about everything else, in the cockpit. The counter argument often heard is that it's impossible to read values from the gauges when sat in default seat position. This becomes irrelevant when you're an experienced pilot/simmer and anticipate some values will be there anyway. During take-off roll you will aim for a 15-20 degree angle and you will see the FD displayed there albeit perhaps not crystal clear. But more than enough informaton to be able to fly the aircraft. It's best compared to someone with slightly outdated prescription glasses sitting in a actual cockpit. Not being able to exactly read from the gauges, moving closer to them and they become CRYSTAL clear.  

Although a challenge, using the mouse cursor like you would on a 2D screen is for me the best option at the moment. Not all buttons/switches will work when you'd only rely on using the Rift controllers (the engine starter switches for instance won't animate and will only work with the mouse). It just takes a bit of patience and some practice but when you're used to it, it works quite well and everything can be operated. As long as you have your primary controls linked to a hardware controller that you can operate blindly, you can afford to use the mouse to work with prep work such as, changing baro setting, changing lights, setting auto brakes level, setting engine switches to continues, arming spoiler etc for an approach. Just don't ask me to also communicate with ATC.

The 747 is the most demanding on FPS for my system. Also, one notices here that the yokes are positioned too close to the dashboard making it impossible to place your left hand on it (capt seat's yoke) or your right hand (FO's seat) but i'm nitpicking now.The 737 cockpit however is near perfect and has the best 'physical' feel. Perhaps this is because it's brighter. 

I used to watch YT videos seeing harware cockpits (like the Norwegian 737 project for instance) with great envy. Oh how I'd love to have a true to life 1 to 1 scaled hardware cockpit of an NGX. What a dream that would be! But those days are over :) With VR I now have all of that and even more. How about looking back over your left shoulder to check if the strobe lights on the wingtips are working just 1 second after you 've switched those on? A 180 degree or even larger projection screen in a hardware setup would not suffice or match the same feeling. How about a walk in the cabin and take a window seat (switching views in real time or better perhaps, with instant replay after landed)? The sense of depth is incredible. Changing seats from a 737 to a 747 and you actually feel that you've moved up one floor. Or how about walking outside and get a true sense of the dimensions of the aircraft. It's enormous.

2 years ago I switched over to X-plane 10/11 in 2D only to come back to FSX again. Apart from Aerofly FS2, it's the only 'real world' sim i can use on my old rig now. And the experience with all, and especially with the PMDG aircraft is simple AMAZING !

I want to continue my VR experience with XP11 but i will need to invest in a new rig before I can do that. VR in XP11 will perhaps even be better than this.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by avhpilot

[OzWhitey 3,353]

I have flown VR IN P3D, X-Plane and Aerofly FS2 today. I still like prepar3d native ver the most out of the three.

ive tried hand controls on aero fly for the first time tonight. Interesting, but hardware controls, plus mouse, are still better.

poster above found that NGX has best frame rates, on an older system. On a new system (1080ti), NGX is the worst of the PMDG Boeing’s performance wise, as the frames are not as stable as I would like. The 747 is smoother.

i still fly the 737 in VR the most, though, because it’s such a usable aircraft.

[jfriz 27]

Antonine,

Thank you for sharing a great find. I always appreciate it when someone shares.  

I am viewing Y-T, videos, to find out more, seems a little spendy.  [Good things are not free]. I really don't know where to start, but will figure it out.  the 737, is my favorite also, having retired off the plane after some 12,000 hours.

Jerry Friz, near KSEA

Edited March 16, 2018 by jfriz
more info

[GCBraun 2,390]

11 hours ago, OzWhitey said:

I have flown VR IN P3D, X-Plane and Aerofly FS2 today. I still like prepar3d native ver the most out of the three.

ive tried hand controls on aero fly for the first time tonight. Interesting, but hardware controls, plus mouse, are still better.

poster above found that NGX has best frame rates, on an older system. On a new system (1080ti), NGX is the worst of the PMDG Boeing’s performance wise, as the frames are not as stable as I would like. The 747 is smoother.

i still fly the 737 in VR the most, though, because it’s such a usable aircraft.

You may like P3D better as a simulator, but I find that XP11's native VR much more intuitive and forward looking. Menus, Views, Movement, Hand Controls, everything is implemented. How can P3D's implementation be superior? The only thing that it may have an edge is the Single-Pass rendering, but that is currently bugged as hell. 

Regarding hardware controls, sure they may work better for something like the Throttle and Yoke, but I cannot see how interacting with switches and knobs with a mouse is more realistic than using your hands.

 

[avhpilot 155]

3 hours ago, jfriz said:

I really don't know where to start, but will figure it out

First check your specs on the oculus (or htc vive, if you're interested in that one) site, if there's anything missing in your hardware specs.

(In my case, i purchased a rift on black friday, knowing that my aging rig was not officially supported. I decided to take advantage of the discount and much to my surprise i could actually use the thing. I was mainly worried about my old motherboard not having any USB 3 ports but sofar so good)

Setting up the Rift took about 30-45 minutes for me. You need to plug in the headset in HDMI port of your gfx card and the 2 camera's in 2 separate USB ports. Place those on the desk in front of you and go through the setup wizard.

In case you have P3D you can use its native VR but i have heard mixed responses (good and bad) about its performance. I have never bought P3D so can't tell about that but just in case it would be a dissapointing first encounter with VR, do not despair, because there is the magical software called 'FlyInside'. You can download a trial version that will work for 15 minutes.

I only have FSX steam edition  so I already had a steam account and only needed to download and install the VR steam component.

When all done, you first start Steam VR, then you start Flyinside (which will start FSX), put on the headset and from here you can see the start menu to create or select a flight etc.. Easy.

The magical thing about Flyinside is that even when the sim itself (FSX) is performing terrible (i am used to getting frames 10-20 FPS - you can still enjoy the game).The head movement in the cockpit itself in 3D space is smooth as butter (default 90 FPS).
Whereas trying an approach/landing with 10-20 FPS on a 2D monitor would be a dreadful experience, in this scenario it's not at all bad. in fact it's quite good. 

In my previous post i said 'just don't ask me to also communicate with ATC'. Well, I have done a flight yesterday using the (crappy) ATC from FSX, filed a plan, asked clearance, enter squak code, activate transponder and changed radios when asked. I have not set up any voice commanding software or anything so i just used the ATC window to interact, selecting the multiple choice responses back to ATC. And it worked quit well when at the same time flying an aircraft that IRL is operated by 2 persons.

On a 2D screen, the ATC window will annoyingly pop-up and block some of your view but with FlyInside this window pops-up in 3 space as a floating object. You then move that window under your left window (the actual cockpit window i mean). adjust its size a little, and there you are. your own kneeboard, always there. never blocking your view on the flight instruments or your outside view. You want to open another window from your desktop. That PDF viewer with the approach charts? Just import that too and place it next to the other one, or put it on the radio stack.

Would be interesting to hear of your experiences and how it compares to the real cockpit!

 

Antoine (near EHAM)

Edited March 16, 2018 by avhpilot

[andreh 125]

I will add my voice to the pro-VR crowd. I got the Rift a while back and I'm already done with monitors. For everything. I even watch movies in Bigscreen now. A movie theater right in my my tiny London living room!

Flyinside bests native in P3D. Only downside I can see is the lack of support for HDR lighting. Something they'll probably fix soon anyway. The very real 3D effect you get easily outweights the low res. I don't mind leaning in to see the some of the smaller text on the displays.

Edit: Btw, don't play Alien Isolation in VR....

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by andreh

[NoahBryant 26]

One thing I wanted to mention. I never use the Oculus controls/hands to fly - just the mouse. They may work okay for a simple single-engine plane or something but are nowhere near accurate enough for a complex plane.  

I have yet to even closely successfully use native VR in P3D and only use FlyInside. 

The mouse position can be set to remain constant according to your head position - what I mean is that you don't have to hold your head super still to interact with a rotary knob. The mouse will stay over the knob if you move your head (unless you move it so far you can't see the knob anymore).

Additionally, you can set a button to do a binocular zoom real quick if you do need to quickly read an instrument, but in PMDG planes this hasn't been necessary for me ( I will use it to program the FMC at the beginning though). 

I have buttons on my joystick/throttle set for:

• Trim
• Autopilot vert speed up/down (for the DC6 mostly)
• Gear
• Binoc zoom
• Centering the mouse (sometimes it gets lost on one of my other monitors)
•  Autopilot on/off
• TO/GA
• A/T Disengage
• flaps up.down
• Recentering VR position

For charts, I mostly just use ForeFlight on my iPad and lift the goggles if I need to see it. However, if I am truly doing a complex approach or flying by hand and that's not ideal, I do the following:

• I create a PDF that contains my OFP, Weather and Charts
• Open the PDF in Acrobat. 
• Import the Acrobat window into the cockpit with FlyInside and just set the Acrobat window in the first officer seat.
• In VR, I can scroll through the different pages of the PDF and see whatever I need to see without a problem. 

I wish I could post a screenshot or something to show how this works but screenshots/videos of VR just make it look terrible and is not fair to the experience. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by NoahBryant

[rcoultas 21]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:09 PM, Turbine777 said:

Just my own input on VR...

Anywho, that's my zero two!

Your response is the first one on VR I’ve read that may have just cost me some $. Thanks for your insights!

Edited March 16, 2018 by rcoultas
Shortened quoted post for space.