REX Sky Force - Cloud Model Sync Explanation

[JoeFackel 760]

10 hours ago, rstough said:

 

Cloud files are mapped on the fly with different cloud types and different models. A static screenshot will never show any major differences (especially from looking up under the bases), since we double the mapping. Sky Force is about immersion with different weather scenarios and situations, not just static examples. The Sky Force textures/cloud model structures/mapping/synching, you can experience endless variation and differences with varying metar on the fly.

So far i'm very happy with SF as addition to ASP4. And indeed none of the screenshots i've seen so far can give the impressions you have during "real" flying through ASP4/SF skies.

But what we still have to differ if we are using the inbuilt engine of SF or an third-party engine like AS! So, does the statement of Reed i quoted above also apply when using AS engine or does this on-the-fly mapping of all texture sets only work if someone is using the SF engine?

In the description is very clear written that only the SF engine will use all bells and whistles of SF but there no statement exactly WHAT are the drawbacks using and third-party engine like AS. So there is still room for buzz and assumptions ;-)

[Nyxx 6,993]

5 minutes ago, J van E said:

get together to drink some of that bottle of whiskey that's left. 

there's none left trust me 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, JoeFackel said:

So far i'm very happy with SF as addition to ASP4. And indeed none of the screenshots i've seen so far can give the impressions you have during "real" flying through ASP4/SF skies.

But what we still have to differ if we are using the inbuilt engine of SF or an third-party engine like AS! So, does the statement of Reed i quoted above also apply when using AS engine or does this on-the-fly mapping of all texture sets only work if someone is using the SF engine?

In the description is very clear written that only the SF engine will use all bells and whistles of SF but there no statement exactly WHAT are the drawbacks using and third-party engine like AS. So there is still room for buzz and assumptions ;-)

Well, we are talking about two things here: structures (or models) and textures.

I loaded the default Building thunderstorms weather theme yesterday and I did see those HUGE clouds that come with SF so the SF structures are actually being used no matter what the source of the weather is. I haven't used the SF weather engine at all so even without that one the structures are working. Finding specific structures while using Active Sky is a bit hard to do, of course: you have to be a bit lucky. 

And since the SF textures are clearly copied into my P3D texture folder those textures are also used! These are the only textures the sim can use so the sim has no choice but to use them! So that's also working perfectly fine! And afaik the textures are linked to the models (or the other way around) so the models know what texture samples to use, regardless of the weather engine. 

Take note though that Reed didn't say "on-the-fly mapping of all texture sets'. Sets aren't loaded and mapped on the fly.  

Now if those structures are synced or injected or simply loaded from disk as usual doesn't really matter, at least not for how things work and what you see in the sim. As long as those structures and textures end up in my skies I am fine with it. (Which doesn't mean I am fine with how this is communicated and the consequences of that but that's a totally different story.  ) SF has given me at least 1160 models which is a lot more than the default amount and also more than the around 400 models that ASCA offers. (I don't know if people know ASCA also came with new 3D structures.) If even more structures are being injected by SF on the fly: even better! But I doubt if I will ever see all those 1160 models in my lifetime already so I don't really care. My skies look great, that's all that matters.

[Nyxx 6,993]

4 minutes ago, JoeFackel said:

But what we still have to differ if we are using the inbuilt engine of SF or an third-party engine like AS! So, does the statement of Reed i quoted above also apply when using AS engine or does this on-the-fly mapping of all texture sets only work if someone is using the SF engine?

In the description is very clear written that only the SF engine will use all bells and whistles of SF but there no statement exactly WHAT are the drawbacks using and third-party engine like AS. So there is still room for buzz and assumptions ;-)

Joe,

It is an interesting question. 

Firstly I've seen REX say everything works with other weather engines (apart from the built in weather engine ofc)

I have not tried it since day one. But when I did use the built in weather engine I was totally blown away, when I did the same flight (within 15 mins) with AS+SF it was not as good. I remember more than anything how stunning everything was, not the case all the time with AS+SF. But as am sure you know about the cloud redraw.

From memory (that's not good these days) I would sacrifice a WX display to have what the sky's that were displaying even going without historical weather imo it was that good. But personally i will not go back to cloud redraws. Also AS + SF bring something new and amazing to my sim world and again because of the incredible about of options within AS I can now run Min cloud draw at 140 nm and max at 250.

But if REX bring out a weather engine that matchers HiFi's for options I would love to try it out. Until then and it might be a compromise but AS+SF is it.

[onebob 125]

On the settings menu, ..Cloud Sync... Clouds... Winds.. Visibilty...  most Items require the SF weather engine  except for:-

3d cloud structures in  .. Cloud Sync

Extended length lightning ... Clouds

Realistic Haze Rendering ... Visibility.

Page 65 - 68 in manual.

bob

 

 

 

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

50 minutes ago, onebob said:

On the settings menu, ..Cloud Sync... Clouds... Winds.. Visibilty...  most Items require the SF weather engine  except for:-

3d cloud structures in  .. Cloud Sync

Extended length lightning ... Clouds

Realistic Haze Rendering ... Visibility.

Page 65 - 68 in manual.

bob

 

 

 

I'm surprised that it took this long for someone to point this out.

[onebob 125]

I suppose a list of those items that require SF weather engine would be useful:-      

The ones that do require it are:-

Cloud Sync  edit  ,,, (  this section requires Rex Sync Engine only) 

Rain Shaft Renderings
Super cell thunderstorm renderings
Tornado cloud

Clouds

Max cloud turbulence
Max thunderstorm turbulence rendering
Max cloud icing rendering
Global cumulus cloud rendering
Global cirrus cloud rendering

Winds

Wind turbulence rendering
Wind shear rendering

Visibility

use of stratus clouds for ground fog rendering
Prepar3D volumetric fog rendering
Min/Max surface visiblity rendering controls
Min/Max upper level visibilty rendering controls

bob

 

 

[geolpilot 88]

16 hours ago, J van E said:

Well, finally, my problems are solved!

Well I have been offline since the maintenance shut down last night and life events today (What's that?! Did I just hear a chorus of cheers?!).

Anyhow glad you have now found and fixed up your problem Jeroen!

That it was a simple setting in the  SF interface that did this to you for days, even after you read in the manual that logging would have no impact - well I personally would have been more than a little miffed. Hope REX fix this pronto, should be a number one priority for them I would think,  or else many people may be misjudging the visual impact of their SF install not even knowing there is an issue. 

[geolpilot 88]

19 minutes ago, onebob said:

Rain Shaft Renderings
Super cell thunderstorm renderings
Tornado cloud

Well we know that using a 3rd party engine we can sync SF cloud models (by Rex's own statements to that effect)

The three points you make above are still "all up in the air". The fact you can still turn on these three Weather Controlled Sync Settings under cloud sync settings,  despite the SF weather engine being turned OFF, would seem to suggest that these can be used and synced through another weather engine.

People have asked the simple question of REX a number of times - OK so we can use another weather engine with SF, "but will we still get rain shafts, rain walls and roll clouds?". So far no simple Yes or NO answer from REX. Meantime many, including me, using AS+SF are out there hunting for these features, possibly all in vain.

Or is it maybe that REX, knowing the SF weather engine is an immature shoe-in to SF until Weather Force comes along, do not want to state outright that one has to use the SF weather engine in order to see these amazing effects, as such an acknowledgment will, I am sure, result in a deluge of criticism for an "unfinished" release, and calls / nagging for them to move on quickly with Weather Force.

I am sorry to say it, but all the REX weather engines so far that I have tried have just not been up to par for me. They are no match when compared to AS16 / P4 in terms of reliable Metar reporting, setting up a weather system that resembles what is seen on say PFPX's weather browse maps, and wind vector patterns (simply a totally wrong, and poor interpolation model being used - I can say this with certainty because a whole chapter of my PhD thesis, and much of the computer programming and modelling I did for that thesis, involved interpolation models for, and mapping of, 3D vector fields from point measurements of vectors, and I have lectured extensively on the topic). Simply for those reasons, never mind the jarring refresh problem that is confirmed, I am not prepared to use the SF weather engine.

REX still have REX Essentials Weather Engine P3D V4 compatibility "On Hold" , so, unless they plan to get Weather Force out first, maybe even as a replacement  to Essentials (i.e it will be their new P3Dv4 compatible engine), then I expect a long wait for Weather Force.

[Dio 8]

Hi there, do you use AS with the same settings as you did or tried out different ones in combination with SF3d?

[onebob 125]

55 minutes ago, geolpilot said:

The three points you make above are still "all up in the air". The fact you can still turn on these three Weather Controlled Sync Settings under cloud sync settings,

I checked again in the manual and the three point you mentioned only require the Rex Sync Engine,

bob

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Dio said:

Hi there, do you use AS with the same settings as you did or tried out different ones in combination with SF3d?

Same ones. I see no reason to change them. However, David/Nyxx did change his cloud drawing distance because of the improved performance of his clouds. But I have mine at 150 already and usually AS won't let you see that far anyway.

[Dio 8]

Just now, J van E said:

Same ones. I see no reason to change them. However, David/Nyxx did change his cloud drawing distance because of the improved performance of his clouds. But I have mine at 150 already and usually AS won't let you see that far anyway.

Well, what about maximum cloud layers?

[Nyxx 6,993]

27 minutes ago, J van E said:

Same ones. I see no reason to change them. However, David/Nyxx did change his cloud drawing distance because of the improved performance of his clouds. But I have mine at 150 already and usually AS won't let you see that far anyway.

I did a flight from LEMG back to the uk on Sunday and the UK was clear sky to be far, i've never seen it so clear just used google earth to measure the distance I was seeing a good 250 nm all round. Max vis is set to 199. I think i'm right in that does not mean 199 is max vis. Its to do with layers 200 only users 1 layer to mask horizon. 199 users the weather report. From memory that is!

23 minutes ago, Dio said:

Well, what about maximum cloud layers?

I use 5 layers.

Min Cloud draw 140 Max 250.

I was at EDDF and could see clear sky on the horizon with min set to 90. Opened up AS with sim running and pushed it up untill clouds draw to as far as I could see. 120 worked but I went a bit more.

[rstough 528]

Thank you, everyone, for your input here, whether positive or negative.  

Either way, it drives our team to work harder to improve our products.  We at REX have always stated that our initial releases are just a starting point.  This has been proven time and time again with our previous products.

REX 1 to REX 2 to REX Essentials to REX Essentials Overdrive

REX 4 Texture Direct to REX Soft Clouds to REX 4 Texture Direct + Soft Clouds to REX Enhanced Editions

Needless to say, REX Sky Force will not be an exception to this.   We will continue to improve the product and additional features over the next weeks and months.

=========================================================================================================================================================

However, I want to address some common questions that seem to asked by many:

Issue #1 - Can I use Sky Force with any 3rd party weather engine and still get all the great effects without having to use the Sky Force weather engine:

The answer to that question is yes.  Again the weather engine is the weather engine.  It will merely show the weather.  The Sky Force model engine operates separately of the Sky Force weather engine as well as the 3rd party weather engine.  It moves Models in and out in real time while you fly along.  So you still get rainshafts, roll clouds, and wall clouds.   You will (when the tornado season starts and it is enabled) will see funnels and tornadoes when reported via metar.  So you do not need to use the REX Sky Force weather engine to use Sky Force other features.

Issue #2 - Can I use another texture product with Sky Force?

The answer to this is you can, but it is strongly not recommended.  All the textures and effects within Sky Force are built around each other. So if you use another 3rd party cloud textures with the Sky Force models they will still show, but look terrible.  So we don't recommend that you do this for sake of getting the most out of all that Sky Force has to offer.  In addition, many of the cool features of Sky Force will not show using another texture package.

Issue #3 - Is having dynamic texture injection better than model injection?

It is really two different approaches here and whether one is better than the other I will leave that for you to decide. 

As I have stated several times here and some seem to continually try to misinform.  Sky Force has focused on the models.  In the application, there are 22 sets of cloud textures, but to clarify these 22 sets is comprised of 2 16x16 texture sheets not been done before.  So the total is really 44 sets of cloud texture sheets.  So what does all this mean?  As I have said before with "SKY FORCE", not referring to other products, our focus has been to expand the standard "DEFAULT" clouds to cover more TRUE cloud classifications.  To do this the standard process had to be expanded thus why we have moved to 2 sheets from just one.  It is not, one sheet replacing the other.  However, this will further improve with Environment Force as you will have the ability to dynamically change this on the fly.

How does this work?  Imagine flying through a storm system.  The clouds are puffy and defined.  Then after flying into the stable air the clouds become wispier and defuse.  In the past, we had to inject cloud textures to handle this.  With our approach, this dynamic injection is not needed for the models interpret this as you fly along. 

In the end - this is OUR approach.  Whether it is better than another - OH I am sure "someone" will express his opinion after I post this.

============================================================================================================================================================

Going forward from here.  We are putting together our list of fixes and tweaks for Hotfix 2 for Sky Force.

The focus of these will be a few cosmetic changes as well as focus on improving the overall performance of the program.  One reason for the latency at times is due to calls to the servers.  We have improved it since release, but we are going to move some of the calls from the server to backend processes and reduce them to one-time calls.  This will greatly improve things.