EU Punishing Small Aircraft. What a system

[Sonar5 3]

Saw this on AOPA.Read it here:http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/ec_insurance.html/Snip"European Mandatory Aircraft Insurance RequirementsThe issueEffective April 30, 2005, new European (EC) regulations require that all aircraft operators (both commercial and private) carry liability insurance coverage with respect to passengers, baggage, cargo, and third parties when operating within, into, out of, or over the territory of a European Union (EU) Member State. The required insurance includes coverage for war, terrorism, hijacking, sabotage, unlawful seizure of aircraft, and civil commotion."As an example, a Cessna 182 carrying a pilot and three passengers and operating non-commercially would require $4,995,210 of insurance coverage, assuming the EU Member State applies the reduced amount for passenger liability. This figure was calculated as follows: $4,541,100 + $454,110 ($151,370 x 3 passengers) = $4,995,210The insurance requirements related to risks of war and terrorism does not apply to aircraft with a MTOW of less than 500 kg (1,103 lb) used for non-commercial purposes or flight instruction."/End Snip5 Million, talk about ridiculous. So much for Freedom to fly affordably anymore. Now this appears to be a real issue, just wondering what effect this will have. It reads to me like an attempt to quash as much private ownership or flying as they can, so that only the big commercial boys can afford to fly. Try getting above 1 Million here in the states, I can only imagine what the cost would be in Europe.Not Good News, unless you are based at Gibraltor Airport, where this will not apply... Yet.... :-lolRegards,JoePS - Link to the PDF Reghttp://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat...0en00010006.pdfGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[mgh 89]

You think a fully loaded light aircraft couldn't cause $(

[Sonar5 3]

"The risk is low and the premium should reflect this."ummm, know much about Aircraft Insurance????It is very different from car insurance and the analogy isn't even close. Costs are much higher, and liability in excess of 1 million is very high.And please read the Bill, and the article.5 Million isn't a cap, there is a formula for weight and number of passengers. The 5 Mill is only a comparison in a Cessna 182. It will be higher in say a Cessna 210, or a Piper Malibu, etc.....Read into it what you like, but I don't think this helps General Aviation in an already difficult region, IMHO.I see it as another obstacle to limit flying to only the very well off. Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Guest Philip Olson]

Well once again Europe moves to stifle freedom and the economy. Any points I make here will be based mostly on my observations and knowledge of Germany since I have family and do business there. Much of what the German and EU governments do is meant to help the individual, in this case to make sure that there is insurance to cover anything bad that happens and while the idea is good like so often it seems that they fail to take into account the negative consequences it will have. How many small operators will go out of business because they can not afford the insurance? How many people will have to give up flying because of the cost? How many people will no longer fly to Europe in their own planes because of the cost? This is not a small problem, this is huge, think of the lost jobs in all sectors, the loss of taxes that would have been collected on fuel, new aircraft purchases, small charter services go under and no longer pay their taxes. The list goes on and on. Just look at the economy in Germany, it is horrible, companies are moving out of Germany all of the time because it costs too much to operate there. Why? Because of all of the government imposed taxes, rules and regulations. Many of these rules are meant to help the "little guys", the employees, but the government fails to see that the cost to a business is too high and will eventually lead to them moving or products that cost so much that no one can afford it. Everything is being cut back by the government, pensions, health care, etc., etc. because they do not have enough money to keep their promises but the government keeps passing laws that will further stifle business and tax revenues. I find it all very disturbing and it seems that no one is willing to try to stop the downward slide, it is almost as if they have no idea of what the problem is and they think that someday it will all magically get better. I am sorry that I got off on a sort of non aviation tangent here but no rules such as these will not only hurt people in all sectors of aviation but in almost all areas to a certain degree. Everything is interrelated in an economy and I hate to see Europe further damage themselves. I remember when Germany had a great economy but now it just keeps going down hill. Most of Europe is in the same boat sadly, although many eastern European countries are benefiting from this mess as they are getting many of the business's that are moving out of Germany and the rest of Europe since it is far cheaper to do business there. Anyway I do hope that Europe can see the folly in their new rules and perhaps change them enough so that it will not be such a hardship on so many private pilots and small aviation companies. My two cents for what it is worth. Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[mgh 89]

I have read the Regulation and the AOPA article. The Directive sets minimum standards for 3rd Party insurance. The AOPA article is special pleading on behalf of 100 of its members. (Incidentally, I can't find any reference to the Directive on AOPA's UK site.) I've checked GA forums and, while there's concern about the possible increase in premiums, there's no suggestion that cover won't be available. Indeed, the UK department for Transport reported that "The minimum amounts of insurance proposed for each of these categories are broadly in line with existing commercial practice, thereby minimising the impact on UK non-commercial aircraft operators."The problem seems to be the US underwriters - "It's almost impossible for light aircraft operators to get more than $1 million in liability insurance from U.S. underwriters."The British Gliding Association already recommends

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

To land at an MoD field the minimum insurance cover is already

[Gavin 99]

>Well once again Europe moves to stifle freedom and the>economy. Any points I make here will be based mostly on my>observations and knowledge of Germany since I have family and>do business there. Much of what the German and EU governments>do is meant to help the individual, in this case to make sure>that there is insurance to cover anything bad that happens and>while the idea is good like so often it seems that they fail>to take into account the negative consequences it will have.>How many small operators will go out of business because they>can not afford the insurance? How many people will have to>give up flying because of the cost? How many people will no>longer fly to Europe in their own planes because of the cost?>This is not a small problem, this is huge, think of the lost>jobs in all sectors, the loss of taxes that would have been>collected on fuel, new aircraft purchases, small charter>services go under and no longer pay their taxes. The list goes>on and on. Just look at the economy in Germany, it is>horrible, companies are moving out of Germany all of the time>because it costs too much to operate there. Why? Because of>all of the government imposed taxes, rules and regulations.>Many of these rules are meant to help the "little guys", the>employees, but the government fails to see that the cost to a>business is too high and will eventually lead to them moving>or products that cost so much that no one can afford it.>Everything is being cut back by the government, pensions,>health care, etc., etc. because they do not have enough money>to keep their promises but the government keeps passing laws>that will further stifle business and tax revenues. I find it>all very disturbing and it seems that no one is willing to try>to stop the downward slide, it is almost as if they have no>idea of what the problem is and they think that someday it>will all magically get better. > I am sorry that I got off on a sort of non aviation tangent>here but no rules such as these will not only hurt people in>all sectors of aviation but in almost all areas to a certain>degree. Everything is interrelated in an economy and I hate to>see Europe further damage themselves. I remember when Germany>had a great economy but now it just keeps going down hill.>Most of Europe is in the same boat sadly, although many>eastern European countries are benefiting from this mess as>they are getting many of the business's that are moving out of>Germany and the rest of Europe since it is far cheaper to do>business there. Anyway I do hope that Europe can see the folly>in their new rules and perhaps change them enough so that it>will not be such a hardship on so many private pilots and>small aviation companies. >My two cents for what it is worth. >Philip Olson>>http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpgPlease don't take this the wrong way, but may I recommend: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/guides.htmlhttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/916312/3.png

[MD83 1]

> Car insurance in the UK is unlimited in respect of .....Not if the UK insurance companies can wriggle their way out of paying! http://www.carrie.cc/images/smileys/shakehead.gif

[Guest Philip Olson]

Gavin, Thanks for pointing this out! I am not usually that bad but I was running late for a meeting so I wrote that very fast, too fast I guess. Obviously I can not write well when I am in a rush. I apologize to all for my poor use of the English language. Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[Guest]

Typical. Several EU countries have been working to eliminate general aviation for years now.The Netherlands since last year require a mode C transponder in all aerial vehicles for example.This includes hot air balloons and gliders, as well as ultralights (I think hanggliders are exempt).Was at a small airfield yesterday. Weekend, great flying weather (cloudless day, no haze, light winds). Last time I was there (about a year ago) on a far worse day and time there wasn't an aircraft sitting on the ramp for longer than it took to refuel and board it.Now we were there for about an hour and over a dozen were sitting on the ramp tied down, and the doors to most hangars were closed tight.Last year our local AOPA affiliate reported that the main supplier of Avgas would stop their activities in this country by 2007 at the latest. That would effectively mean that only 1 field in the entire country would still have Avgas available (they have a contract with a different supplier who I don't think has equipment to supply a dozen more fields).The attitude of EU governments towards general aviation is that it's a plaything for the bourgeois rich who have nothing else to do and to top it that it's bad for the environment with no return at all (except some taxes and landing fees).If they could they'd probably ban general aviation completely, I'm in fact somewhat surprised that they haven't tried yet using the environment (after all, we all need to reduce CO2 output to meet Kyoto guidelines if it destroys our economies) as an excuse.

[mgh 89]

UK Government draft planning policy in relation to general aviation is:"Small airports and aerodromes are also important: they can serve business, recreational, training and emergency services needs. As demand for commercial air transport grows, this General Aviation (GA) may find access to larger airports increasingly restricted. GA operators will therefore have to look to smaller airfields to provide facilities. In formulating their plan policies and proposals, local authorities should take account of the contribution of GA to local and regional economies; the national need for pilot training; and the benefits of having suitable facilities."Hardly sounds like trying to eliminate general aviation.I understand that in the UK Mode A and C transponders are required for non-public transport flights only when flying at or above FL100 or in certain notified airspace.Has the government forced the main Avgas supplier to give up?

[Sonar5 3]

Ummmmm,You keep commenting about the UK, and not about the EU in General.This isn't just about the UK, try all of the EU. How about other countries that are in the EU, what about them?Surely, it's not the same.Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[mgh 89]

I write about what I know, which is the UK. People from other countries can write about theirs.BTW, what hard evidence have you to put forward about the other EU countries?

[Sonar5 3]

Nice deflection attempt, but not playing. ;-)Since I started the thread, I stated the article, and a link to the bill, which is the evidence you seek, if you bothered to read it, that is.I also stated in the first post this:"Now this appears to be a real issue, just wondering what effect this will have."Note that it asks others what effect it will have. You then state it will hardly eliminate GA. Well, maybe in the UK, maybe not, but don't speak for all of the EU.My evidence is in the bill itself which takes effect this coming week.Anyway, thanks for replying. Have a nice Sunday, or Monday. :-)Regards,Joe Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[mgh 89]

Yes I have read it. Did you? It's a Regulation not a bill.I put forward evidence to show it seems to be no big deal in the UK.You have put forward no evidence that its a serious problem in the rest of the EU. The problem seemed to be with US underwriters not the EU.It's Monday now, and I'll enjoy it.