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yellowjack

ATC and FMS: Friends or Foes.

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I am in the process of learning the nuances of Prep3DV4  but still have and use FSX. I want to find the answer to a riddle of Prep3D.

 I refer to the apparent gap between ATC comms and FMS operations. It appears that one can have either an up to date whizz bang FMC or one can have ATC comms but not both. The options for the two technologies to work together in Prep3D are just about none existent as far as I can tell. The only popular exception to this rule (that I know of) is the QW 757 in FSX which has the ability to load an FSX flight plan into the FMS and use that for the flight giving both FMS navigation and ATC comms facilities. Whilst this is not perfectly accurate and one cannot plan departures and arrivals in the native flight planner, but it has to be preferable to a complete flight with no ATC comms or interaction whatever especially if the user has AI aircraft flying all over the place. However, using an aircraft FMC and ATC using the same flight plan appears to be “A bridge too far”.

      For example, I purchased both the Aerosoft CRJ and the Captain Sim B757 for use in Pep3D4. But at this stage they are both in a locked hanger because of the communications ATC/FMS black hole. I also purchased FSBUILD only to find that it doesn’t output flight plans in formats suitable for the above products it will however produce a native flight plan.

            It would be possible, though hardly practicable, to make a standard Flightsim/Prep3D flight plan using the inbuilt sim planner or another product, print it out and then use the printout to load the FMS manually, (what a drag that would be) so much for the computer age!

            It is interesting to note that simple GPS equipped aircraft do use the inbuilt flight planner for the GPS plan.

            So how do others manage or circumvent this issue or is it just ignored and the choice between ATC or FMS planning made.  Perhaps there is a flight planning program that can be used to produce both native and special format FMC flight plans I would pay good money for such a product..  

I look forward to hearing other members views and solutions  on  this issue.


John

Rig: Gigabyte AORUS Z370 Gaming 7 Motherboard, I7-I8086SE CPU, 32GB DDR4 Ram, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Graphics, Acer 34" wide view display with VSYNC on.

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Simple solution: get ProATC. Let it plan the flight or load a (real world) plan into it and it will tell you the SID and STAR at the appropriate time, guide you along the way and it will be completely in sync with the FMS [well, as long as you program the same plan, of course).

Default ATC is only fun for VFR but absolutely useless for use with an FMS.

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7 minutes ago, yellowjack said:

 Perhaps there is a flight planning program that can be used to produce both native and special format FMC flight plans I would pay good money for such a product..  

 

I'm not sure if I understand your problem 100%, but you are looking for PFPX

 

The FSX/P3D built in flightplan isn't of any use if you want to fly advanced airliners with an FMC. You can use PFPX and export then the Flightplans into formats for several addons. (However due to the lacking support of PFPX recent addons are probably not supported.)

 

 


Guenter Steiner
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Betatester for: A2A, Hifi, Simstarter, AivlaSoft 
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I use ProATC too, using Navigraph data in that and the PMDG FMS.  Works well 99 times out of 100.


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Yes, I am aware of the ProATC to PMDG linkup, FSBUILD also supports PMDG flight plans,  but what other FMC flight plan types are supported?.  PFPX might be Ok but I found nothing about the format of flight plans produced and how they are loaded in FMCs or ATC system.

I also checked PROATC but it indicates that one may have to enter the flight plan into the aircraft FMS. Exactly the problem I am talking about. I have found it difficult to find out the types of outputs produced such software. These producers all cackle on about how realistic they are so why can't I load a "Company route"  (i.e. Flight plan) into both the FMC and ATC systems.


John

Rig: Gigabyte AORUS Z370 Gaming 7 Motherboard, I7-I8086SE CPU, 32GB DDR4 Ram, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Graphics, Acer 34" wide view display with VSYNC on.

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Pro ATC exports the flightplan so you can import it via the Co-Route functionality of the PMDG FMS. Should work also for Aerosoft Airbus, iFly 737 NG, 747 v2, QualitiyWings and Wilco-Falcon 7.


Regards

 

Eric Bach

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Thanks with regard to your naming "Quality Wings", which Aircraft are you talking about?  I 've heard that the 757 will not work in Prep3d4 yet I'm not sure that the 787 can either I will check that out, whoops no B787 yet either and I have no interest in the 146 .

 


John

Rig: Gigabyte AORUS Z370 Gaming 7 Motherboard, I7-I8086SE CPU, 32GB DDR4 Ram, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Graphics, Acer 34" wide view display with VSYNC on.

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2 hours ago, yellowjack said:

Yes, I am aware of the ProATC to PMDG linkup, FSBUILD also supports PMDG flight plans,  but what other FMC flight plan types are supported?.  PFPX might be Ok but I found nothing about the format of flight plans produced and how they are loaded in FMCs or ATC system.

I also checked PROATC but it indicates that one may have to enter the flight plan into the aircraft FMS. Exactly the problem I am talking about. I have found it difficult to find out the types of outputs produced such software. These producers all cackle on about how realistic they are so why can't I load a "Company route"  (i.e. Flight plan) into both the FMC and ATC systems.

Have you tried "Simbrief "?  After building your flightplan and generating an "OFP" with the button at the top left, scroll down below the load sheet and it will give you many choices on saving the flightplan as different aircraft FMS company routes, as well as P3D native flightplan. Click on the "?" next to the flightplan save button for instructions on where to put the different files. All the way at the bottom you will also have handy links to file the flightplan to Pilotedge or Vatsim.


Robert Yunque

PilotEdge Ratings =   CAT-11 (2016-09-13)  I-11 (2016-10-23)  V-3 (2016-08-01)

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2 hours ago, signmanbob said:

After building your flightplan and generating an "OFP" with the button at the top left, scroll down below the load sheet and it will give you many choices on saving the flightplan as different aircraft FMS company routes, as well as P3D native flightplan.

 

And same is valid for PFPX. You could also easiyl export the FPL

 

After exporting it, you could load it into the FMC via a certain FMC option (depends on the developer).

As example, in PMDG FMCs you have a FMC button "load route". Others work similar. After that, you have inserted the route from PFPX (or simbrief or whatever) into the FMC.

 


Guenter Steiner
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Betatester for: A2A, Hifi, Simstarter, AivlaSoft 
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Littlenavmap do it for free, this soft know a lot of fms formats.

ATC is a soft who is only able to direct you but whiteout any possibilities of real dialog with the addons.

on ground I follow atc instructions and when in take-off flow, I leave the following by atc. 

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Yellowjack,

I really think you have to do some research regarding an addon ATC. I have the same problem with FS2004. ALL inbuilt (default) ATC programmes leave chasms to to be desired,  regardless of platform.

and all are incredibly inadequate.

I get around this by not submitting a flight plan at all. I access ATC in VFR mode to get taxi and take off instructions. The problem with this method is that in VFR mode, ATC request a frequency change every couple of minutes. I actually clocked up a total of 52 frequency changes in a flight from YBBN to YBTL. This coupled with ATC telling 747s, 777s and 737s that they are 300 feet aove or below their assigned altitude,points to incredibly unreliable autopilots on the individual aircraft and/or pilots, or, incredibly unrealistic native AC. Either way, it is not particularly immersive and is, in fact, extremely annoying to listen to.

I get around this by using native ATC for the taxi and takeoff instructions and when they tell me, after takeoff, to change frequency, I cancel ATC until I get close to the airport and then request landing permission. and then taxi to gate instructions. Even this is spoilt by the fact that it is impossible to land and get off the runway without being told to exit the runway. 

All in all, native ATC is highly unreleastic and unsatisfactory to say the least.

Addon ATC is the answer and all here will naturally recommend the one that they like best. Do your research (I think some will give you a trial period for assessment) but, bear in mind, that any addon, regardless of quirks/bugs or erratic behaviour, is going to be a thousand times better than native ATC.

Cheers

Tony

 


Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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I might add that the best ATC is provided by real people. Vatsim or PilotEdge could be something to consider


 

 

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It doesn't matter what kind of ATC you use real or otherwise. It is different to the FMC. ATC have no idea at all what you have put into your FMC nor do they care. They are concerned only with safe separation etc. Your FMC is in effect an aide memoire to tell you the best point to descend etc from an economy point of view. It does not tell ATC nor do ATC ask it. If it is essential that you start your descent when the FMC says so then the real procedure is that you ask ATC for descent clearance. Otherwise you have to wait until they give it. PF3 has an instruction "at your discretion" which allows you to start your descent when you wish provided that you meet any further altitude constraints. If ATC ask you to descend before your TOD then you need to comply as they know something that your FMC doesn't. The only time you would need to rely on your FMC is if you have radio failure.

When constructing a "real" fpl you can put in it cruise celings etc to be at x by a certain point. However, you are allowed only to put in whole degrees say 44N 007W thus giving ATC a 60nm window which is not the same as the FMC.


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14 hours ago, signmanbob said:

Have you tried "Simbrief "?  After building your flightplan and generating an "OFP" with the button at the top left, scroll down below the load sheet and it will give you many choices on saving the flightplan as different aircraft FMS company routes, as well as P3D native flightplan. Click on the "?" next to the flightplan save button for instructions on where to put the different files. All the way at the bottom you will also have handy links to file the flightplan to Pilotedge or Vatsim.

Thank you "Simbrief" looks like the best bet yet. I will investigate further.

 

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John

Rig: Gigabyte AORUS Z370 Gaming 7 Motherboard, I7-I8086SE CPU, 32GB DDR4 Ram, Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super Graphics, Acer 34" wide view display with VSYNC on.

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8 hours ago, yellowjack said:

Thank you "Simbrief" looks like the best bet yet. I will investigate further.

1

Glad to help John. I wear Simbrief out I use it so much.  Every now and then I'll drop of a little donation to it just to help keep it going.

Don't forget to click up in the little arrow of my post to help my reputation.  I need all the aid I can get :biggrin:

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Robert Yunque

PilotEdge Ratings =   CAT-11 (2016-09-13)  I-11 (2016-10-23)  V-3 (2016-08-01)

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