How Much will your next Add-On Cost?

[Sonar5 3]

Ron,It still does not diminish the right of me or others to be entitled to have opinions, offer those to others who may or may not be contemplating a purchase.I really don't care if you like my opinions or not, as pleasing you is not on my list of things to do. :-)I just don't see enough logic at this time to feel the only reason there are two different versions with a "lower end" version, IMHO, being released first is purely monetary, and that is the practice I disagree with if it comes to fruition.By all means don't listen to me if you don't want to. You felt the need to respond, and I appreciate it, but your marketing scheme as outlined here by you goes against my personal expectations for factual reasons I listed.You can disagree with those all you like, but they are sound, IMHO, and we'll see when you release if I feel the same or not.Here is what I see hapenning, IMHO. You will, IMHO, possibly release the SR20 with very limited avionics, and then release the SR22 with expanded avionics even though the same avionics are available on both models as options by Cirrus.Strictly monetary, IMHO. And you are certainly entitled to do what you want, as am I to say what I think. :-)As far as my opinion not carrying any weight with you, I simply don't care if you don't like my opinions, I just call facts as I see them. I figured the SR20 would be released first. Your confirmation of that simply reinforces my opinion. Thanks. I'll be anticipating what the differences will be in the two aircraft upon release of the first.Yes, you and your group can make all the marketing decisions, but with that comes responsibility for justifying those decisions for prospective buyers who may or may not be wondering similar thoughts to what I have expressed here.Your Number 7, where you said:"7. If we may be very frank here, we who DO the actual development work here make the marketing decisions. They are based on very sound business practices and your opinions are not included in our decision making process."Now, based on very sound business practices is simply your opinion, and I happen to disagree with it. :-)I hope that is "clear and concise" for you as well." :-)Joe***********You said:*************"Joe, I'll try to be both clear and concise.1. Our advice to "take a pass", while directed to you personally, is indeed a standard answer to anyone who does not see VALUE in what we produce.2. Glad to see that you've done some homework on the differences in the various Cirrus aircraft and the Avidyne systems.3. We did not invite you to the "meetings" where decisions were made regarding development and marketing of the Cirrus aircraft simply because you are not a part of Eaglesoft Development Group. That should clarify for you why your "opinion" carries no weight in our decison making process. Should we ever decide to include you as a "consultant" we'll give you a call:-)4. A list of functionality will be released at the appropriate time.5. The SR20 G2 will be released first, followed by the SR22 G2 whenever our schedules allow us to complete it's development.6. No "buy one discount the other" marketing is anticipated at this time though we do reserve the right to do so if we wish.:-)6. It should be clear to you by now that we do not seek your opinion, endorsement, recommendation, expectations, or any other criteria you may expound upon.7. If we may be very frank here, we who DO the actual development work here make the marketing decisions. They are based on very sound business practices and your opinions are not included in our decision making process.8. However difficult it may be for you Joe...please accept the simple fact that our world, and that of flightsimmers everywhere does not revolve around YOUR opinions:-)Like my old pappy used to say..."opinions are like belly buttons, everybody's got one":-)"

[N400QW 205]

Joe, much of this has been discussed ad infinitum.1. Other than what we have said publically regarding the SR20 G2 and posted screen shots of, we can assure you that you do not know the facts of what we will release, what functions will be included in the final build for release, or any other propriety information regarding our products.2. All of the relevent information will be made available AFTER beta testing is completed. Until WE release our product, and WE release relevent information anything YOU say is simply conjecture on your part.3. We have perfect confidence in the public to indeed make "big boy purchase decisons" based on what WE say and what WE deliver without them having to wade through your sea of IMO's>I figured the SR20 would be released first. Your confirmation of that simply reinforces my opinion.

[Sonar5 3]

>I figured the SR20 would be released first. Your confirmation of that simply reinforces my opinion.<>>Just to update you...the SR20 G2 released first statement was>issued by us sometime back and really does not reinforce your>opinion at all..Ron,Now you're reading my mind. I don't think so, Ron. It's my opinion, and you saying it does not reinforce my opinion is simply humorous at best. :-lol :-lolIf I say it reinforces my opinion, it does. BTW- I use my opinion a lot because legally, that is what it is, and I am very aware of what I say, how I say it, and the legalities in doing so.It all has to do with the truth, integrity, and the law in the state I live in. :-)As far as conjecture.No Kidding... Conjecture can be interchanged with the word Opinion Ron. I've stated facts where I said so, and delineated the others as opinion, so I'm glad you understand what I post, and I am happy you are able to seperate the two. ;-)So, I'll just wait for the release, and hope to see something that meets my expectations.And if anyone in the public that may be considering a purchase wants to wade through my posts, they are free to do so as well, even if you feel they don't have to. :-lol :-lol***********You said:***********"Joe, much of this has been discussed ad infinitum.1. Other than what we have said publically regarding the SR20 G2 and posted screen shots of, we can assure you that you do not know the facts of what we will release, what functions will be included in the final build for release, or any other propriety information regarding our products.2. All of the relevent information will be made available AFTER beta testing is completed. Until WE release our product, and WE release relevent information anything YOU say is simply conjecture on your part.3. We have perfect confidence in the public to indeed make "big boy purchase decisons" based on what WE say and what WE deliver without them having to wade through your sea of IMO's>I figured the SR20 would be released first. Your confirmation of that simply reinforces my opinion.

[Sonar5 3]

Well Ron,For now, I guess I'll be flying the Freeware SR20 Someone just told me about.I grabbed it from here:Cirrus Freeware SR20http://www.gkflusi.de/nuke/modules.php?op=...load&file=indexDirect Download :http://www.gkflusi.de/nuke/modules.php?op=...q=getit&lid=125"FSDS 2 model with full moving parts and fully instrumented virtual cockpit and opening doors.This model has a classical panel and is equipped with an ARNAV GPS.Additionally a working CAPS (Cirrus Airframe Parachute System) is implemented.In the program group that is created during setup you will find the manual and a configuration utility that helps you setting some parameters."Well, I'm off to do some flying in my new Classic Panel Cirrus, and see how she does. :-)Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[N400QW 205]

Joe, we did note long ago that you couch nearly every erroneous statement and accusatory post in a generous helping of IMO's to protect your sorry outlook from stepping over the "legal limit".It's not very difficult to ascertain when someone like yourself has and agenda so our best advice to you is to not "overstep" in the area of "speaking for others", truth and/or integrity:-)You may be blissfully unaware of what has been, or is recorded for posterity.:-)We'll leave you now to your inflated ego...IMO:-)

[N400QW 205]

Have fun:-)Oh by the way...we know the developers and you'll be happy to hear that they recommend the Eaglesoft Sandel.

[Sonar5 3]

You Can Note whatever you like Ron, and as far as your advice goes, no thanks, I'll form my own opinions, and you can keep your alleged advice. I don't hold it in very high regard. :-lol :-lolAs far as posterity goes, glad to know my words are immortalized. I know that I've never pretended to be something I am not. Some times I wonder if others can say the same. Hmmm....Sorry Outlook, now that is funny. :-lol :-lolWell, I'm off flying.>Joe, we did note long ago that you couch nearly every>erroneous statement and accusatory post in a generous helping>of IMO's to protect your sorry outlook from stepping over the>"legal limit".>>It's not very difficult to ascertain when someone like>yourself has and agenda so our best advice to you is to not>"overstep" in the area of "speaking for others", truth and/or>integrity:-)>>You may be blissfully unaware of what has been, or is recorded>for posterity.:-)>>We'll leave you now to your inflated ego...IMO:-)Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[N400QW 205]

Duly noted:-)

[Guest rana]

Normally I stay away from replying so I don't sound like an idiot - but this is to good to let go.Joe, I would agree with some of your points. (a) I also think that developers sometime can be over sensitive. Its not true only for payware developers, but also for humble freeware developers (looking at the other hot issue). I have seen it happening many times: personally I think it might be a bit childish, but then again its a personal preference.(:( some paywares do appear to be very expensive. At the same time there are some that are very good value for money. There are some products you come across and wonder how long it might have taken (for example, I recently purchased VF London.. and its one of those "how long did this take" kind of scenery). But at the end, its really upto the developer/retailers to decide. We don't complain paying

[Guest]

Joe, why don't you take it up with Cirrus aircraft and demand they give anyone who buys one of their types the other one for free?I'm sure if you can get Cirrus to do so Eaglesoft will follow suit.

[Sonar5 3]

Now, why didn't I think of that. Doh!!!! :-lolMaybe Eaglesoft will include both, and then I can talk with Cirrus about doing the same. :-lolDo you think it will work????? ;-)I'm off to bed, I've had enough humor for one night.JoePS - Jeroen, go grab the Free one in the link above. Nice Visual Model, and pretty good avionics as well.Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[N400QW 205]

Jeroen, if he can get that one accomplished I'll give him AND you all the copies you want of ANY of our planes:-) :-)The freeware Cirrus he's refering to does recommend our Sandel if anyone is interested:-)

[Byrna 0]

Hi Sonar5,After glancing through the postings in this thread, I've noticed something interesting which may be happening: More sophisticated and hence time-consuming add-ons being developed for an increasingly complex and demanding flightsim community. So it may be that the price of the high-quality add-on aircraft and scenery may be inevitably going up in the future. But HIGH-QUALITY is the key word here - one thing paying for an out-dated, buggy and inaccurate FDE of an add-on aircraft (e.g. PSS) and a completely different thing paying for a PMDG. I too personally would not hesitate to buy a great quality aircraft add-on but the issue I have is with scenery. Scenery for small areas, no matter how major, like Manhattan (Aerosoft) or Hong Kong (FlightSoft) seems to be over-priced for the quality and coverage we're getting. So I would think twice before purchasing such a scenery for, as some have already stated, it is really just "eye-candy" and do not even include the airports which is where we actually "do" our flightsimming in the technical sense (where we land-we don't land in Central Park in NY :)))... no matter how nice it looks.) So I agreee with you about this scenery coming out, covering small areas and costing more than $40US in some cases - I wouldn't buy it ... but with exceptions. Certain areas I really want to have, because I grew up there, or really like, I may buy. But certainly, if all flightsimmers who buy each and every area at $30 a piece or more, will end-up spending literally thousands of dollars for all such areas if they want to cover the entire World!John

[Guest almogo]

I have been exposed to the flight sim community for only 5 months, but I

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Developers with simply a love and passion for the thing they are developing for...In the early days, the two big names were Sublogic and Microsoft. Sublogic was a small group of enthusiasts who thought it was cool to be able to fly planes on a computer. Microsoft was, well, Microsoft. Bruce Artwick developed software which made it easier/smoother to control a plane using a keyboard. Sublogic deliberately did not copyright it, believing the development of competing flight sims was in their best long term interest. Bruce Artwick went from Sublogic to work for Microsoft which copyrighted that software. The legal stuff hit the fan about when Sublogic's ATP was in development. Sublogic was able to eventually release it but as part of the out of court settlement surrendered the rights to the name "flight simulator". Sublogic simply did not have the capital to present what they thought was a winning case. What effect the court costs and loss of income from being prevented by injunction from releasing ATP for a while had I do not know specifically, but it coudn't have been good. The overall pace of PC flight sim development slowed dramatically. Only in the past few years have some of the things Sublogic accomplished been incorporated into other sims.ATP had: (IN THE EIGHTEES, MIND YOU)Dynamic weather, with fronts and high/low pressure systems modeled, snow cover during apropriate times of year and increased thunderstorm and other activity when apropriate for region.WORKING weather radarATC with vector logic, speed restrictions, change of altimeter setting above 18,000 feet, requests for different SPECIFIC altitudes/flight levels and runways A grading system for airmanship, safety and efficiency scoring performance on dozens of parametersAn internal airline servicing 27 cities with cumulative records of multiple pilot's careersThe ability to sit back and watch as "jack" the autopilot conducted an entire flight, including interacting with ATC with the ability to jump in when you wanted to.A rough modeling of an INS systemAs an addon, EVERY navaid and ILS in the US was available.Of course, the hardware imposed limitations. The graphics were nothing like today, the entire program ran in DOS and shipped on four floppies. But it was years ahead of anything from Microsoft. Of these features that Microsoft now has, many were implemented just a few short years ago.There are many sims that do a few things particularly well, but the atmosphere of cooperation Sublogic aimed for has been squelched. The tantalising possibility of being able to incorporate scenery from one sim, flight models from another, an especially good panel from a third and so on is still not realised, legalities being even more of an impediment than file conversion. I'm not advocating piracy, but if you spend money on a sim that does soething well, why not be able to incorporate it into another sim you also payed for that also does something well? Falcon 4.0 is a combat sim, but it shows what is possible. A pannable 2D cockpit, virtual cockpit, realistic looking terrain, and FAST frame rates on my Pentium III 550 MGH with 32 meg vid card. Not only does it have "traffic", it responds to ATC and there is a whole war being waged without crippling my low-end system.Kinda makes you think: From what ATP offered, and what Falcon 4.0 shows is possible, how far have civil simulators REALLY come in the last twenty years? And since Microsoft has effectively become almost the only game in town, how much has overall development slowed?Don't even START comparing payware addon features against default. People are quick to jump on X plane, but compare their flight dynamics to DEFAULT MSFS if you want to compare, NOT payware addon aircraft. The same with panels, too.Just my three and a half cents worth adjusted for inflation...:-wave