Major simulation flaws in P3Dv4

[NorwegianAviator 60]

Hello,

I recently posted in LM's "Feature requests" forum a few major issues in P3D v4.1. Been using P3D since v1, and before that FSX and FS2004. Love the sim, but I've been annoyed by the major flaws in the simulation of basic stuff in P3D. And now, in version 4.1, we still have major flaws in the simulation while LM are focusing on improving the graphics. Here's a shortened list:

• ground friction bug (been on the platform MS Flight simulator times)
• adf dip not simulated
• turboprop simulation is severely broken. No beta range is simulated or a realistic startup. It's not even close to realistic.
• piston engine simulation also has a few issues (try a constant pitch propeller plane. If you add power without changing rpm, you will hear the engine working harder. In a real airplane, you will not hear this. Only if you change rpm. The opposite happens in P3D)
• water dynamics also severely broken. It takes quite a bit of power to get the airplane to start moving on water.
• no icing simulation
• no slippery runways simulation
• ground handling is lacking in several areas
• general physics should have been better
• flight dynamics are not the best
• helicopter simulation is a big joke and far from realistic
• startup animations could also have been improved for all engine types (piston, turbofan, turboprop)

Other issues:

• outdated nav database world wide (data from 2006?)
• missing winter textures for taxiways and apron (we have them on runways)
• 2D sprites cloud system (Sky Force fixes this somewhat, but not perfect)

The most major ones in P3D right now is the ground friction bug, broken turboprop simulation and the water dynamics. Since P3D is a professional product, I'd expect more from it on the simulation side. Still, people are complaining about the graphics, and requesting graphic related features. Before they start adding new features or do anything else, they should fix the severely broken simulation of basic stuff and fundamentals first. It's a flight simulator, not an arcade game.

Hopefully more people will start to question their simulation of basics, so LM might consider fixing these long standing problems and issues instead of focusing on new features.

[kand 205]

I agree, but all of the friction issues (water/ice/rolling/sliding) you mention can easily be fixed yourself if you're willing (like I have done) to learn a bit about HEX editing SIM1.DLL and altering thrust values in table 1506 of the airfile. You will end up with a bespoke fsim which is broken at every point release however! 

I have used open source engine thrust information to determine the actual rolling coefficient to set in the sim, see my Fsdeveloper posts.

I highly doubt LM will ever sort the friction coefficient problems out as it will mean every airfile will need to be adjusted so open a floodgate of legacy based complaints

 

You can use FSaerodata (payware) to bring all of the default nav data up to date, or use http://www.aero.sors.fr/ work for free (recommended a donation to Herve) 

[Rimshot 1,135]

Good post Jan. I agree, especially considering the ground friction and handling of the aircraft. That is far from perfect to put it mildly. It still looks and feels like flying on the ground...

1 minute ago, kand said:

I highly doubt LM will ever sort the friction coefficient problems out as it will mean every airfile will need to be adjusted so open a floodgate of legacy based complaints

I can imagine, but it would be a good step forward in flight simulation.

[newtie 533]

I used this a while back to cure an ac that wouldn't break from a stopped position unless I gave it considerable throttle and then it would take off like a rocket.

Worked really well. Not sure if it would help what you guys are after.

http://www.fspsstore.com/fsps-products/fsps-frictionality-p3d.html

Cheers,

Mark

[NorwegianAviator 60]

8 minutes ago, kand said:

I agree, but the friction issues can easily be fixed yourself if youre willing (like I have done) to learn a bit about HEX editing SIM1.DLL and altering thrust values in table 1506 of the airfile.

I highly doubt LM will ever sort the friction coefficient problems out as it will mean every airfile will need to be adjusted so open a floodgate of legacy based complaints

 

You can use FSaerodata (payware) to bring all of the default nav data up to date, or use http://www.aero.sors.fr/ work for free (recommended a donation to Herve) 

For a professional flight simulator like P3D is, I shouldn't have to "fix it myself". This is easily fixed by LM. It's amazing that after 4 major versions of P3D (and many more smaller updates), we still have the ground friction bug there, and the turboprop simulation is still severely broken and a big joke. Regarding legacy based products. At some point they need to trash legacy products to make room for something that is close to reality when it comes to simulation of turboprops, flight dynamics etc. It was the same thing when they moved to 64bit. They had to sacrifice those old 32bit legacy products in order to make the switch over to 64bit.

Try any of the turboprops from f.ex Carenado. It's not anywhere realistic when it comes to how the turboprop engine works, which makes it impossible to fly a proper ILS approach. Especially if it's turbulent and windy. It's not possible with a small adjustment in torque without having to wait 40 secs for the engine to get there. This is not how a turboprop engine works. Try taxiing a turboprop airplane in P3D. It's a nightmare, and no beta range is simulated. In a turboprop we taxi the airplane and control the taxi speed by going in and out of beta range.

Right now I'm hoping for a flightsim that can simulate things properly and somewhat realistically. Then, after the basic simulation is in place, they can start working on new features and improved graphics and lighting.

[NorwegianAviator 60]

10 minutes ago, newtie said:

I used this a while back to cure an ac that wouldn't break from a stopped position unless I gave it considerable throttle and then it would take off like a rocket.

Worked really well. Not sure if it would help what you guys are after.

http://www.fspsstore.com/fsps-products/fsps-frictionality-p3d.html

Cheers,

Mark

This is not for P3D v4 unfortunately.

[newtie 533]

It has been a while....

[Adrian123 1,015]

Ironically , If I'm not mistaken, these are the same issues that have plagued FS since it's beginning. Would be nice to see them resolved but it must be difficult if not impossible I reckon or they would have been.

[NorwegianAviator 60]

 

27 minutes ago, kand said:

I highly doubt LM will ever sort the friction coefficient problems out as it will mean every airfile will need to be adjusted so open a floodgate of legacy based complaints

They should. The way many things are simulated today in v4.1 is totally unrealistic and something you can find in arcade games, not a flight simulator.
They need to break the backward compatibility at some point to give us the oportunity to have properly simulated airplanes and helicopters in P3D. We can't continue in this direction for decades.

[NorwegianAviator 60]

3 minutes ago, Adrian123 said:

Ironically , If I'm not mistaken, these are the same issues that have plagued FS since it's beginning. Would be nice to see them resolved but it must be difficult if not impossible I reckon or they would have been.

You are perfectly correct :) It's long standing FS issues from back in the days that are still not fixed. LM needs to resolve this. Being a professional training platform, it's just too stupid that they can't fix these basic issues. How hard can it be. X-plane has a perfectly working turboprop simulation. Along with a lot of other things. Why not P3D?

[Nyxx 6,993]

What Aircrafts within V4 do you fly/own.?

 

[NorwegianAviator 60]

2 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

What Aircrafts within V4 do you fly/own.?

 

A2A, Realair, Majestic, PMDG. The only airplanes I fly due to issues listed above.

[Nyxx 6,993]

Well there is one that has coding for wet/ice runways etc within its performance and probably the best simulation you can buy within P3D v4.1

FSL A320. 

As a real pilot you would  enjoy the depth it's beyond anything else. The next release build with performance looks close now and reports say its now the same as the PMDG NG performance wise but a much higher level that someone like you should enjoy. Even with the shortcoming of P3D that FSL have manage to mitigate some of.

[Christopher Low 5,352]

This is not exactly a simulation flaw, but.......that annoying AI plane "hold position/continue taxi/hold position/continue taxi......" BS routine annoys the hell out of me

[kand 205]

52 minutes ago, JanReidar said:

A2A, Realair, Majestic, PMDG. The only airplanes I fly due to issues listed above.

All of those addons have to set a highly unrealistic level of idle thrust to "nullify" the effects of the default friction coefficients, however they can do nothing for the unrealistic sliding co-efficients or the unrealistic contamination coefficients. This high idle thrust means that you end up with a very flat curve through the N1 23% to 70% range, so they dont actually fix the issue, just mask it, realistic? I think not 

I agree you shouldn't have to do it yourself, but it bothered me so much I am now resigned to fixing it myself each time a point release is made, takes me about an hour all in, cant imagine I would use the sim with the default values again, awful experience.