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ColinSigley

Navigraph Data in GTN750

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I've been addicted to using the 750 lately...I generally love it.  However, last evening I was planning a flight from KPNE to KCAK and the STAR indicated by Simbrief wasn't available as the airac data is too old in the 750.  Since my plan was to fly online, I was disappointed.  The OCD in me kicked in and I couldn't get over not using my original flight plan.  I made the flight using the default FMS which went well but it annoyed the hell out me.  I just can't understand why the entities involved can't come up with an agreement so that Navigraph navdata could be used.  The add on costs almost as much as X-Plane itself....it's a NAVIGATION add-on.....it should have current data.  It would be like Flight Factor selling the 767 without engines...but the other systems are modelled.  Sales of the 750 would multiply as the only real hesitation for most folks (source: FB) is the navdata issue.  Apologies for my rant.....my wife wouldn't listen and frankly, doesn't care.

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My opinion only...Flight factor, etc are commercial type aircraft using dedicated Flight Management systems. You will not find a  GA navigation system on those type of aircraft, no was it ever intended for that use. I only use the GNS or GTN for my GA flying and the navdata is perfectly fine for that. Plus, not losing touch, this is a pseudo game simulator not RW commercial intent. IF it is so vital to have up to the moment Navdata, one can always get a Garmin subscription.

Edited by Adrian123
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1 hour ago, jcbak said:

I've been addicted to using the 750 lately...I generally love it.  However, last evening I was planning a flight from KPNE to KCAK and the STAR indicated by Simbrief wasn't available as the airac data is too old in the 750.  Since my plan was to fly online, I was disappointed.  The OCD in me kicked in and I couldn't get over not using my original flight plan.  I made the flight using the default FMS which went well but it annoyed the hell out me.  I just can't understand why the entities involved can't come up with an agreement so that Navigraph navdata could be used.  The add on costs almost as much as X-Plane itself....it's a NAVIGATION add-on.....it should have current data.  It would be like Flight Factor selling the 767 without engines...but the other systems are modelled.  Sales of the 750 would multiply as the only real hesitation for most folks (source: FB) is the navdata issue.  Apologies for my rant.....my wife wouldn't listen and frankly, doesn't care.

The GTN, (both the F1 and RXP versions) use the official Garmin trainer program for their functionality. The databases used in the trainer are exactly the same files used in the real GTN units installed in real aircraft.

You could, in fact, extract the database files from the trainer onto the appropriate SIM card, and load them into a real GTN, and they would work.

The F1 and RXP GTNs are, for all intents and purposes, a real GTN in software form.

It is nice that Garmin permits flight simulation companies like F1 and RXP to use their trainer program as the core of the flight sim versions. It’s a good business marketing decision, because at least some flight sim users who use the F1 and RXP products may be real world aircraft owners contemplating purchasing a GTN for their aircraft, and they can get a better understanding of how those units work in a simulated aircraft that can actually be flown, rather than using the trainer in static stand-alone mode on a computer desktop.

Garmin sells monthly database subscriptions to pilots for use in their aircraft, and those subscriptions are a substantial source of revenue for the company. The format of the database files is proprietary, and what’s more, they are encrypted.

There is no possible way that Garmin is going to provide Navigraph or any other flight simulation AIRAC provider with information about the internal structure and encryption algorithms used in their databases - specifically because the resulting files could then be loaded in a real GTN. 

Garmin isn’t in the business of making computer flight simulator add-ons. They are in the business of making real avionics for real aircraft that sell for thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars.

The only way that you could ever have a flight sim GTN that could be updated monthly would be to do what MS has done with their GNS-430 product, which is to create a “built from the ground up” emulation of the “look and feel” of a real Garmin GNS-430, but which does not use actual Garmin training software for its internal operation.

And even in the case of MS, they don’t use Navigraph for database updates. They have their own proprietary database, which you have to purchase from them separately.

Making a realistic emulation of the much more complex GTN 650 or 750 that works as realistically as the current Garmin trainer-based apps would be a massive undertaking.

The only solution to getting semi-regular updates for the current GTN add-ons would be if Garmin themselves agreed to sell expired versions of their GTN Nav data files specifically to flight sim users who use the RXP or F1 products. If Garmin ever did start such a service, I’m sure that any updates they provide would probably be several cycles behind current data, but it might be possible to get 2 or 3 updates every year that way, rather than having to wait for a new version of the trainer to be released ever 18 months or so.

RXP has hinted that they are looking at options for getting more regular updates, so quite possibly they are having some private discussions with Garmin about doing something like this, but that is purely speculation on my part.

Edited by RXP
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Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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We a very fortunate to be able to have such a great product for Flight simming! BTW Jean Luc, you take trade ins on Garmins? 😉

 

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1 hour ago, Adrian123 said:

My opinion only...Flight factor, etc are commercial type aircraft using dedicated Flight Management systems. You will not find a  GA navigation system on those type of aircraft, no was it ever intended for that use. I only use the GNS or GTN for my GA flying and the navdata is perfectly fine for that. Plus, not losing touch, this is a pseudo game simulator not RW commercial intent. IF it is so vital to have up to the moment Navdata, one can always get a Garmin subscription.

"Vital" is subjective.  Flying online requires up to date navdata.  The cost of a Garmin update is pricey for simulation.  Every other navigation tool in X-Plane is updatable with a Navigraph subscription.  Look, I'm not attacking RXP....on the contrary I'm trying to make it better.  Updatable navdata would only help them sell more units.  There has to be a way to write a code that would disallow Navigraph updates to be used in the actual Garmin units.  I absolutely understand Garmin not wanting to give away the store.  Not every suggestion requires a defense.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/announcement-navigation/

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I understand. But we can loose sight of what FS is or isn't.

Edited by Adrian123

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There are very good and valid points in this discussion, thank you for sharing! I hear you.

No unfortunately I don't take trade-ins, enough to work on already, with the G600/500 taking an additional delay: after we've spent some days for trainer v6.50.1 compatibility and a post-update fix release, we're now awaiting P3D4.4 today to finalize yet another update.

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On 1/31/2018 at 2:42 PM, hjsmuc said:

This is not possible because the GTN (both RXP and F1) use the data from the Garmin Trainer. Updates would only be possible if one had the official Garmin update software which, afaik, is quite expensive. 

Just want to confirm, is this still the case? Not the end of the world for me, but it would be nice to get Jepp charts in my 750.

Any advice appreciated!

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5 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

Just want to confirm, is this still the case? Not the end of the world for me, but it would be nice to get Jepp charts in my 750.

Any advice appreciated!

It is still the case.  Note that Garmin has been providing updates to the trainer that includes the GTN series and those Garmin updates have included updated nav databases. Approach charts are included in the database but they are not Jepp, at least not for North America.

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5 minutes ago, fppilot said:

It is still the case.  Note that Garmin has been providing updates to the trainer that includes the GTN series and those Garmin updates have included updated nav databases. Approach charts are included in the database but they are not Jepp, at least not for North America.

Thanks Frank. Not too big a deal I suppose, I can use ForeFlight for the Jepp charts. 

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Posted (edited)
On 11/28/2018 at 3:20 PM, JRBarrett said:

 ... There is no possible way that Garmin is going to provide Navigraph or any other flight simulation AIRAC provider with information about the internal structure and encryption algorithms used in their databases - specifically because the resulting files could then be loaded in a real GTN. ...

They provided Jeppesen with the information, but it is roughly as expensive from Jeppesen. Jeppesen sells its dat to Navigraph. It just print "intended for flight simulation only - not for navigational use" on the charts. Eefectively making it illegal to fly with these charts. If you get a police check, and they certainly do it regularly, on the charts you are using and you show them these from Navigraph you are in trouble. Even worse if something happens you might not be insured.

The same for using such derived database from Navigraph data for the real thing: It makes flying with it illegal and your insurance most likely invalid.

So I do not see a reason why Garmin/Jeppesen would not provide the data via Navigraph or RXP for simulation use. They could just add a text to the information/date appearing in the screen when you have to do the database check I would expect. Then in a real aircraft it is clear it is the wrong database. But they don't the moment. RXP's cannot force them to.

 

 

Edited by PeterBremer

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1 hour ago, PeterBremer said:

So I do not see a reason why Garmin/Jeppesen would not provide the data via Navigraph or RXP for simulation use.

I think that @JRBarrett clearly explained above why this can't happen.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PeterBremer said:

They provided Jeppesen with the information, but it is roughly as expensive from Jeppesen. Jeppesen sells its dat to Navigraph. It just print "intended for flight simulation only - not for navigational use" on the charts. Eefectively making it illegal to fly with these charts. If you get a police check, and they certainly do it regularly, on the charts you are using and you show them these from Navigraph you are in trouble. Even worse if something happens you might not be insured.

The same for using such derived database from Navigraph data for the real thing: It makes flying with it illegal and your insurance most likely invalid.

So I do not see a reason why Garmin/Jeppesen would not provide the data via Navigraph or RXP for simulation use. They could just add a text to the information/date appearing in the screen when you have to do the database check I would expect. Then in a real aircraft it is clear it is the wrong database. But they don't the moment. RXP's cannot force them to.

 

 

That will never happen. Since Jeppesen is an authorized provider of r/w navigation databases for Garmin GPS units, they obviously know how to encode the data in Garmin’s proprietary format, but that format would be considered a “trade secret” and subject to NDA. The only way Jeppesen (or Navigraph) would be able to offer a Garmin-compatible database for flight simulation would be if Garmin specifically authorized it, and there is no way they would ever do that.

It’s not just that Garmin would have concerns that owners of real GNS systems in real airplanes might use the flight sim version of the database in the real GPS systems to avoid paying the standard subscription fees, it would also be of major concern to the FAA.

Operating databases for real aircraft navigation systems can only be provided by vendors which hold a Type 1 LOA (letter of authorization) from the FAA, and whose databases are certified in accordance with a standard known as DO-200A which has stringent requirements for the accuracy and integrity of the databases. It would actually be illegal for any entity not holding such certification to create or distribute a database that (potentially) could be used in a real world GPS or FMS, even if the database was marked “for flight simulation only”. Garmin and Jeppesen obviously hold such authorization, but Navigraph definitely does not.

Although Navigraph provides databases for dozens of different flight sim add-ons and utilities on all major platforms (FSX, P3D, XP and core nav data for MSFS), there is one flight simulator for which they do not, (and cannot) provide a database: the Aerowinx PSX 747-400 sim. The reason they cannot do so is that in addition to its use by flight sim hobbyists, PSX is also FAA-approved for use a procedural trainer for real world 747-400 flight crew training. PSX is used by Boeing, Atlas Air and others for this purpose. Navigraph’s agreement with Jeppesen prohibits them from selling databases for any product that can be used for real-world flight training.

Edited by JRBarrett

Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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33 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

...

Ok, thanks, clear.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

I think that @JRBarrett clearly explained above why this can't happen.

I did initially did not think so, that is why I reacted as I did. I am not stupid.

Buut from a later post by him it is now fully clear.

 

Edited by PeterBremer

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