UK waypoints and navaids

[Christopher Low 5,353]

I have been flying the PMDG 737 NGX around the UK and Ireland over the past few months, using a database of waypoints and navaids to input basic flightplans into the FMC. However, it seems that there are a LOT more navaids available than I can find on UK waypoint/navaid maps, and the NATS AIS database etc. These other waypoints would be extremely useful to me for "fine tuning" my flightplans (I do not worry about whether my plans match real world routes), so I would like to know how I can find a map that shows ALL of them. Do I need a Navigraph (or other) subscription for this, or is this information available to download for free? If so, where can I find it?

As an example of what I mean, I generally use the ADN SID to depart EGPD Aberdeen from runway 34, and then look for suitable waypoints to use to get to my destination. The maps that I have found online show a waypoint called GLESK to the south, and this is the closest one that is shown for departures in that direction. However, looking at the charts for EGPD Aberdeen that are available on the NATS AIS website, I noticed a waypoint called LAVTI that was much closer. This is not displayed on any of the other UK waypoint maps that I can find. I also note that there are numerous extra waypoints shown on RNAV approach charts that are not shown at all anywhere else. This leads me to believe that there are a LOT more of these navaids around than I originally thought. The PMDG 737 NGX navaid database includes LAVTI, and lots of those RNAV waypoints, so they can clearly be accessed by the FMC, and used for creating flightplans. Another example would be SIDs, which frequently include multiple additional waypoints.

Any help regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

[kevinfirth 1,394]

Chris, Id first make sure you have the waypoints in your sim data (easiest payware option fsAerodata IMHO) or try Herve Sors site (I forget whether his data contains full waypoints or not?)

May be worth then viewing them in a flight planning utility eg PlanG/LittleNavMal etc so you can actually see where they are?

Im guessing a little as I always look up rl routes....

Cheers K

[skelsey 765]

Hi Chris,

Just so I know how to help best -- what exactly is your aim from the flight planning process?

I know you're not bothered about spending hours and hours finding exact CFMU-validated real world routes, but it seems to me here that you're going out of your way to come up with routes as far removed from reality as possible. Is there a reason for this or is it just a pathological hatred of airways? 

The reason you will not find a chart with every single fix on is that it would be unusable due to the amount of clutter. Thus enroute charts generally show only the fixes relevant to enroute navigation, instrument approach charts only show the fixes relevant to that particular approach and so on.

The FMC of course has to have all of these fixes in the database and technically is able to route between any of them, but I fear you are, whether in search of simplicity or something else, making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be...

[Christopher Low 5,353]

I am interested in creating a sort of "extended pattern" at various airports, where I can fly direct between multiple close waypoints, enjoy some nice views of specific scenery and landmarks (hence the "fine tuning" required), and then land again at the same airport. Quick, interesting flights that enable me to input a simple flightplan into the FMC, and use the autopilot for navigation. For the record, I am not looking for the most straightforward way to do this. I get a lot of satisfaction from building even relatively basic flightplans in the FMC, using the autopilot to navigate the route, controlling the short descent, and then taking manual control for the landing (when I am stabilised on final approach). I love doing short flights like this, because the most exciting parts of the flight for me (take off and landing) happen in relatively quick succession. I can do multiple flights one after the other, rather than a single flight that (to be honest) can get a bit boring during the cruise.

I know that this probably sounds weird to those of you who like to fly airliners "by the book", and simulate real world flights as closely as possible, but that isn't what I am looking for at the moment. I just want to be able to build a database of short, extended pattern style flights that I can enjoy over and over again, and that are a bit more than just a normal pattern. By changing the time of day (and day of the week), I will see different AI planes come and go every time. That is a big part of the thrill for me, and is why I do not study airline flightplans in great detail. I like to be surprised by the unexpected!

[Christopher Low 5,353]

So, is this information not available? I have just completed a short test flight at EGPD Aberdeen using the LAVTI waypoint and ATF NDB (which was fun), but I would like to extend this just a bit more (but not as far as GLESK), and have a shallower final turn for the runway 34 approach.

EDIT: I note that there are also FIX waypoints that do not seem to be included in the 737 NGX database. Is there any way to use these in my flightplans?

[kaosfere 3,115]

My suggestion would be to install the free Little Nav Map and load Navigraph data into it.  Once you've done that, you should be able to see and search for all the waypoints in the Navigraph database.  That's probably the easiest way to see them all in one place.

(Just be sure you load the same cycle into your NGX so the FMC has the same data in it.)

[skelsey 765]

There are a couple of options:

You could use software such as that suggested above, or alternatively something like SkyVector where you could draw a route and insert the co-ordinates directly in to the FMC LEGS page. The other thing you could do is use the FMC Place/Bearing/Distance or along-track waypoint entries to draw what you want on the nav display -- so you could, for instance, having entered a route to GLESK enter something like GLESK/-5 (or however many miles). This will create a point on the track from your previous waypoint to GLESK, 5 nm before GLESK.

Place/Bearing/Distance waypoints can also be used to define a waypoint based on a bearing and distance from any given point in the nav database (or, indeed, from a pseudo-waypoint such as an along-track waypoint or even another PBD waypoint). For instance, if you wanted to create a waypoint that was 10NM from GLESK on a bearing of 090 degrees, you could enter GLESK090/10 (if I recall the Boeing FMC format correctly -- you may wish to check that in the manual!).

Using these techniques it is possible to draw almost anything you want on the nav display for the aircraft to follow.

Hope that helps!

[scianoir 610]

On 04/02/2018 at 0:17 PM, Christopher Low said:

I get a lot of satisfaction from building even relatively basic flightplans in the FMC, using the autopilot to navigate the route, controlling the short descent, and then taking manual control for the landing (when I am stabilised on final approach). I love doing short flights like this, because the most exciting parts of the flight for me (take off and landing) happen in relatively quick succession. I can do multiple flights one after the other, rather than a single flight that (to be honest) can get a bit boring during the cruise.

I understand what you are saying and I often do something similar myself with short flights beginning and ending at the same airport. I tend to check on AS16 for airports with bad weather and, depending on the aircraft I'm flying, I will use its FMC or the GTN750 and autopilot to fly a very wide 'extended pattern' of the airport (often 50-100 track miles long) using local navaids and waypoints and sometimes incorporating parts of SIDS or STARS. Having checked the various types of approach available for the landing runway I will then usually fly the chosen approach manually which can sometimes be a nice challenge in poor weather and a good test of your skills (or lack of them!).

Occasionally if there are two airports close by I will instead fly between them but I agree long periods spent in cruise can get a bit boring. I do however still do some longer flights but sometimes alleviate some of the cruise boredom by reverting to the navaids of the 60s and 70s and just using VOR, DME and ADF to get from A to B. Indeed in the A2A Connie I reverted even further doing a few transatlantic flights using the great freeware weatherships gauge for Oceanic navigation (but cheating somewhat by using the autopilot and accelerated time to minimise cruise induced boredom!).

Bill

Edit: I have found SimPlatesX very useful for planning and identifying local waypoints and use it a lot for flight planning.

[Christopher Low 5,353]

I was not aware that I could add additional waypoints with bearings and distances from existing waypoints. That could prove to be extremely useful