PC12, PFPX and weights

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

I use PFPX with a PC12 aircraft template to generate flight plans and this includes a random number of pax (max 6) together with a random cargo load.

The one thing I'm not sure about is the weight of the pilot and whether this is taken into account by PFPX in its template.

The empty weight is 5600lbs in PFPX which matches that shown in the fuel and payload section in P3D. But where do you include the pilot's weight?

Hope this doesn't seem a daft question.

[softreset 33]

Payload

Payload is the sum of the weights of passengers, their baggage and cargo. Passengers, of course, are not individually weighed. The standard weights of an adult, a child, an infant and their baggage are used to calculate the pay-load. Cargo, carried in the aircraft‘s hold is weighed separately.

Other items like crew, oil, catering and galley equipment do not count as Payload and are included in the Empty Weight.

Page 54, PFPX manual

http://www.flightsimsoft.com/downloads/Manual_PFPX_en_web.pdf

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

Thanks Mark, makes sense.

[softreset 33]

Certainly. Wasn't sure of the answer myself (off the top of my head) but I recall seeing it somewhere in the manual when I first setup the app.

I personally never fly at the flight levels they recommend but everything else about the tool works great for the PC-12.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

It's confusing because there is a box to enter the pilot's weight in the aircraft's fuel and payload dialogue. What I should do really is input a suitable value - say 168lbs - and then reduce the aircraft's empty weight in the aircraft.cfg to compensate. That way it looks like there is a pilot flying the aircraft!

Interesting you mention the flight levels. Flying at FL300 doesn't allow me to enjoy much of the scenery. What would you consider a reasonable altitude? Most of my flights are around 1 hour.

[softreset 33]

Ray - Sure, that makes sense. Unless you simulate a charter/carrier that requires two pilots? Both of the PC-12 carriers in California require a pilot & co-pilot.

YMMV but for me, I usually fly between 8,000 - 25,000.

But some of that is because 98% of my PC-12 flights are with FSEconomy and to maintain a minimum of 45 GPH fuel flow, I can't go much higher unless I unrealistically modify aircraft.cfg values. I also do 100% of my flights in North America and in referencing flightaware for PC-12 traffic I've observed that they rarely fly much higher than FL250. Considering some of the winds we've had up there, if I'm flying east-to-west in the US right now I'll rarely go above 16,000. The other night, for example at FL260 I would have had an 80kts+ headwind.

I've flown on a couple of PC-12s (IRL) and the ratio that two different pilots gave me was -

Distance / 10 + 2000

as a rough estimate. So my 440nm flight last night was flown at FL210 (as I was headed east in the US).

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

Hi Mark,

No, it's only me flying and I don't fly for any group. I'll adjust the max altitude to 250 in PFPX.

I've been trying to work out a suitable altitude using the formula you supplied. For a 200nm flight that would be:-

200 / 10 = 20 + 2000 = 2020. FL202 adjusted to FL200?

But then a 400nm would be 400 / 10 = 40 + 2000 = 2040 or still FL200.

Could you clarify please?

[mgr 29]

Hiya,

Based on radar24 information, for example JetFly's PC-12's regular fly at FL260 at 400-500 nm flights.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/lx-jfb#1081c3ef
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/lx-jfb#107598f4

Rough 360 nm is flown at FL230: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/lx-jfb#1079b1e8

Note due to airspace restrictions between lower and upper airspace (border usally between FL180-FL245) a lower cruise altitude can be chosen.

Regards,

Marcel

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by mgr

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

Thanks Marcel. Seems the FL300 ceiling is rarely achieved.

Looking at the aircraft.cfg and the [weight and balance] section there is a value of 180 for station 0 which is the pilot's. So that weight seems to be taken into account. So why isn't that value shown in the fuel and payload dialogue? It remains at 0 when it should surely show 180.

[mgr 29]

Hi Ray,

Can only speak of the FSX version.

This one shows, pilot and pax fwd (meanding co-pilot)  in aircraft.cfg:

station_load.0 = 180,  2.5, 0, 0
station_load.1 = 0,  2.5, 0, 0

station_name.0 = "pilot"       
station_name.1 = "pax fwd"

This also shows inside FSX in the fuel and payload dialogue. The same load and description as in the aircraft.cfg.
So for FSX (and also real-life i gather) the pilot is payload.

PC-12 POH:

Quote

Payload = Weight of occupants, cargo, and baggage.

Regards,

Marcel

PS: Definition of empty weight in PSPX seems to be "operating empty weight" and FSX to be (Manufacturer's) empty weight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_empty_weight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturer's_empty_weight

Edited February 24, 2018 by mgr

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

Hi Marcel,

Thats the same as what’s in P3D. Do you see 180 in the dialogue box for the pilot in fuel & payload? It’s 0 in P3D.

Strange how there’s so little mention of the pilot’s weight in specs given it can’t fly without one.

[mgr 29]

Hi Ray,

This is in my current aircraft.cfg:

max_number_of_stations = 9
station_load.0 = 180,  2.5, 0, 0
station_load.1 = 180,  2.5, 0, 0
station_load.2 =   0,  1.5, 0, 0
station_load.3 =   0,  1.5, 0, 0
station_load.4 = 180,  0.5, 0, 0
station_load.5 = 180,  0.5, 0, 0
station_load.6 =   0, -0.5, 0, 0
station_load.7 =   0, -0.5, 0, 0
station_load.8 = 250, -1.0, 0, 0

station_name.0 = "pilot"       
station_name.1 = "pax fwd"
station_name.2 = "pax 2nd row"
station_name.3 = "Pax 2nd row"
station_name.4 = "pax 3rd row"
station_name.5 = "pax 3rd row"
station_name.6 = "pax 4th row"
station_name.7 = "pax 4th row"   
station_name.8 = "400lbs max"      

This is also displayed in the payload menu (note menu is in kg):

Marcel

 

 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

Thanks Marcel. I’ll check mine later and advise.

Mine looks okay but I have one question for you. I see you have included the pilot's weight which gets added to the Payload. According to @softreset in his first post crew weight does not form part of the payload so I'm not sure why it's been added.

To compensate for this should the Empty Weight be reduced by the crew's weight to keep the numbers correct?

Edited February 25, 2018 by Ray Proudfoot
Additional info

[mgr 29]

On 24-2-2018 at 0:14 PM, mgr said:

PS: Definition of empty weight in PFPX seems to be "operating empty weight" and FSX to be (Manufacturer's) empty weight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_empty_weight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturer's_empty_weight

Hi Ray,

See above. also note PFPX is "designed" for tube-lines with 2 pilots and crew. Not so much for small planes like the PC-12.

Best thing is to add in PFPX an extra passenger as pilot. ;-)

Marcel

 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,947]

5 hours ago, mgr said:

Hi Ray,

See above. also note PFPX is "designed" for tube-lines with 2 pilots and crew. Not so much for small planes like the PC-12.

Best thing is to add in PFPX an extra passenger as pilot. ;-)

Marcel

 

Understood Marcel. What I might do is to reduce the Empty Weight value by the weight of the pilot. Then when I add the pilot to the fuel & payload section we arrive back at the correct Empty Weight.

I appreciate PFPX is for jets but I can’t use it for Concorde, don’t have a Boeing or Airbus so the PC12 is the only aircraft I can use it for.

One other question. With a pax limit of 6 it’s a bit on the small side. Is there a Carenado with a pax limit around 20-30? Just for a bit more variety.