small civ. jet - which?

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"If one is only hoping to make something of their own then why release it for public scrutiny? Publish and be dammed."I think this is hardly a fair statement, and it's one reason why we see less and less freeware. It's no secret there's fewer original aircraft releases in the forums. Why is that?I think the shoe should be on the other foot. People don't publish freeware to put in on the chopping block. I believe the mindset of most is "I enjoyed making this, maybe someone else will enjoy using it". I very rarely receive negative comments on my work, but some believe it or not have had the nerve to email me with their trash talk. One email is burned in my memory--to paraphrase, someone wrote "Why did you waste my ..... time and bandwidth?. I only fly with a VC!" That person is still an active member in these forums, although not the author of this thread or one of those who replied.With the exception of Landclass Assistant, which wasn't an aircraft, my projects are quickly thrown together and I build them first and foremost because it's absorbing work and even a rank amateur such as myself finds that challenge exciting and fun. A number of people have asked for the projects I work on, so I oblige. But freeware authors in general don't put their work online to hear in a public forum how their work is insufficient in one manner or another, even when someone speaks in generalities and doesn't name "names".-John

[N400QW 205]

John Ci is a freeware developer and deserves the same respect as other freeware developers.If one were to retrace some of the threads where freeware developers have been nearly "sliced in pieces" by the so called ""community"" [double quotes for emphasis]it is would be easy to see why freeware developers have either given up, or "gone commercial".In our humble view, the ""community"" could use some time to reevaluate it treatment of freeware developers overall:-)At the end of the day, there is no need to denigrate people who provide "something for nothing". Freeware folks enhance the community by doing so:-)

[Guest Mesa]

'It's no secret there's fewer original aircraft releases in the forums. Why is that?'I think the obvious reason we see less and less freeware aircraft is that payware standards have risen to such a high level in the past few years that most freeware offerings look risable in comparison. There was a time when most of my aircraft add-ons were freeware and after going through all my stack of cd's and dvd's recently I was amazed at what I have downloaded over the years and once thought of as indispensible. The top end payware developers have really upped the ante and made a lot of hobbyist freeware producers abandon releasing their work publically except for a few genuinely talented individuals like Mr Olsson of course (and thank god). Of course the freeware authors who remain don't put their work online to be ridiculed in public but it's naive and somewhat egotistical to expect only positive comments from an adoring public.

[Guest iholrf]

this is why it falls on ones shoulders to ask...This shoot first mentality is rather childish.One word wrong at 2am after a long day of work and then work on my own site... and this is the result...I have not been this disgusted in years.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Of course the freeware authors who remain don't put their work online to be ridiculed in public but it's naive and somewhat egotistical to expect only positive comments from an adoring public."Obviously there will always be two camps on this issue. If Tom or Ken feel my remarks and responses are out of line on this subject, I won't be offended if they delete them. However I believe the ones who are egotistical are those making public comments such as "these projects don't meet MY standards". Funny how that one gets turned around on us as freeware developers. Half the people making these comments can't even build a freeware "stick" plane, let alone something like Kirk's art. But if they did and I didn't think the work was worth a download, I wouldn't be here in a public forum humiliating the people, either with a general statement or with a pointed finger. It goes back to the reply made to me "you wouldn't say this to my face". If a parent loves his children and can only afford to dress them in hand-me-down clothes is told by another--"only designer clothes suffice", I suspect it would trigger more than harsh words. These freeware projects are "children". It may be naive to hope they aren't criticized, but we're not getting any dime for it. Perhaps the public should get a clue.-John

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"I have not been this disgusted in years."Ditto. I see you're completely ignoring the reason I went "off" on the subject. So please don't use the word "childish" to describe the reaction. Methinks you don't understand what the word means.-John

[N400QW 205]

>this is why it falls on ones shoulders to ask...>>This shoot first mentality is rather childish.>>One word wrong at 2am after a long day of work and then work>on my own site... and this is the result...>>I have not been this disgusted in years.The question is not whether a specific freeware authors work is worthy of praise or derision, but rather how members of the "community" treat freewares developers in general.Most experienced freeware developers are far from being thin skinned, and are quite able to handle legitimate critiques of their work.The question of why certain members of the "community" feel that it is their right to "brush off" someones work, and generally engage in some of the nastiest comments remains....If you don't personally like someones work, then why not be quiet about it and avoid disgustiing others with your low opinion:-)

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

JohnJust a few points to consider. If i do anything in any walk of life the last thing I want is people to say " Great Fantastic", when I know they are being diplomatic and not saying what they really think or mean.That doesnt help me improve or doesnt let me see flaws that I cannot see through my own eyes.There is a big difference between positive criticism and negative criticism.Lastly I have often noticed that people who create stunning work often have their work criticised more.The reason for that is that people become more nit picky on stunning work while on rubbish there are so many faults that they either dont bother saying anything or the faults just blend into one mess in their minds.People expect more and more perfection from the top creators and any imperfections stand out in a far greater way.At the end of the day anything we do we do for ourselves and a job well done is our own spiritual reward.In that sense acclaim from others is slightly superficial and meaningless.Positive criticism from others can give us the direction and challenge to improve and that cannot be bad.All the bestPeter

[Guest spookymufu]

JohnCi,your reponce was so far out it isnt funny. Not everyone can be on a top ten list and when you put something out to the public, not everyone is going to like it and a portion will say they dont like it. I tried one of the eclips (dont know if it was yours or not) but I thought it stunk and I deleted it, if someone would have asked my opinion I would have said I didnt like it. You'll have to learn to accept that people will not always like you or your work.And before you say it, yes I have some freeware paints and models (for several games including FS) out there for people to like or not....and if they dont, it doesnt bother me, they can delete it if they dont like it and I can fix it if they find fault and want to provide corrections...you should adopt the same philosphy.....Also, you need to work on your tact IF, and I say only if, your going to advise others on how to "act".

[Guest iholrf]

No. I do not believe in altruism. It does not exist in the human condition. Every human engages in behavior based on reward. Even people who do things for free or "charity". They are rewarded. The difference is its not a cash reward. Its an egostisical reward. (Look the word up, I mean it in the proper Freudian sense, not the ######ized pop culture sense)Free is not a shield from critique... People release their crap on the world to pad their egos... guess what... thats not free... in fact nothing in this world is free... nothing.Crap is crap and deserves to be called crap.By the same token, good is good and deservers to be rewarded. It called balance.I will not cow toe to one or two fragile egos who think they can be exempt from scrutiny simply because they don't charge cash for it. The price you want me to pay (loss of freedom) is way to high.And no John, you can back peddle and try to justify your kneejerk reaction all you want. The fact rmains it was kneejerk and actually very personal, aggressive and rude, where nothing I said was directed at any one person what so ever and was atually posted with the largest level of tact I could when trying to communicate my desires at 2 am.Pardon me for failing... Maybe apply the same level of "expectation" to yourself as you would have me apply to myself.I reiterate... a mature person takes a moment before reacting and seeks the truth before posting a comment. If you are now trying to turn this into a "blanket statement" not directed at me but at the community as a whole (BS BTW) then I will thank you to not.If you had bothered to actually reply to any number of other threads I have posted here and in the devel forum where I asked for "any other quality freeware", followed the posted link and seen I did not have it, gotten to know who had asked the question, you would instead have found me excited and happy to have another model to host and promote.But no. It seems you would rather argue semantics. You made a monster out of a mole hill, and enemy instead of a friend and promoter.What a waste.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Thanks Peter,I certainly don't want high praise from everyone. But not every freeware author posts their work with the intent of seeking improvement and we don't expect to see "shotgun" posts generalizing freeware as "not meeting standards". I don't want to make my work better. I simply like what I have done and share it with the hopes someone else will. Many of us who do aircraft projects feel that way. We're not trying to be Kirk, or Yannick. We're simply trying to have fun. So it is disheartening when we see threads like this one that assume freeware is meant to be a higher standard or meant to "please", at least by the way they are worded. Now I do have some "pet" projects where I want input, but those are coding projects like Landclass Assistant. I will never have the talent to spin out a freeware aircraft project of the quality some seem to expect. But I do feel that threads like this one should approach ALL freeware authors with utmost respect.-John

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Someone who says "Crap is crap and deserves to be called crap."and"But no. It seems you would rather argue semantics. You made a monster out of a mole hill, and enemy instead of a friend and promoter."Certainly isn't going to be my friend because I detest such attitude. But I certainly don't think someone is an "enemy" because they don't think like I do. That's your call, but it shows there's more here than meets the eye.-John

[Guest iholrf]

lol... Yes John... there is a great big conspiracy to undermine freeware.

[N400QW 205]

"No. I do not believe in altruism. It does not exist in the human condition. Every human engages in behavior based on reward. Even people who do things for free or "charity". They are rewarded. The difference is its not a cash reward. Its an egostisical reward. (Look the word up, I mean it in the proper Freudian sense, not the ######ized pop culture sense)Free is not a shield from critique... People release their crap on the world to pad their egos... guess what... thats not free... in fact nothing in this world is free... nothing.Crap is crap and deserves to be called crap.By the same token, good is good and deservers to be rewarded. It called balance.I will not cow toe to one or two fragile egos who think they can be exempt from scrutiny simply because they don't charge cash for it. The price you want me to pay (loss of freedom) is way to high."--------------------------------------------------------------------While what you say may be true in your world, it is quite obvious that you are in a minority of folks who don't give a flip about how they treat others and revel in their own egotistic judgement of whether someone elses work is worthy of their teeny tiny top ten list or not.:-)Tell us what YOU have PRODUCED for the community except your own subjective view of what rates as top ten:-) Could it be, that you are interested in promoting your own subjective view and site at the expense of others? Hmmm, interesting question:-)

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Yes John... there is a great big conspiracy to undermine freeware."I think your remarks are spiraling south. The only conspiracy here is one of the respect you lack. Thru wasting my time. You certainly have lost my respect. -John