Delidded 7700K - now not starting

[martin-w 3,235]

2 hours ago, CloudSurfer said:

I find it hilarious how people say how great Intel are, then they risk destroying their CPUs to fix serious design flaws. AMD users don't have these problems. ;)

 

What serous design floor? You mean that Intel are using TIM instead of solder between IHS and die? That's not a design flaw, it's a design choice. Saves money and mitigates the potential issue with cracked die's. Soldering 14nm dies to an IHS is not easy.

Remember that the CPU's are functioning great without delidding.  It's just that enthusiasts like to mess about to squeeze that bit extra out of their CPU's. 

You should also remember that delidding is relatively easy and safe with the appropriate tool, it's not that common for issues like the one in this thread to manifest. And of course the issues may be nothing to do with the delidding. 

You may find that AMD adpot theTIM method of attaching a die to an IHS too, when we start to drop below 14nm. They may have no choice. 

[westman 257]

4 hours ago, Adrian123 said:

It's my opinion, this delidding is Voodoo Mechanics. I run a 7700K @5ghz at less than 60c, far less. The risk of damage doesn't out weigh the gain.

Voodoo Mechanics ??? Strange that JetLine Systems Gravity GTX use pretested 5.1ghz delidded with condonaut.

Gravity GTX is their flagship made with VooDoo 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOViZLLl-_M

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by westman

[CloudSurfer 16]

Intel went with TIM because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

If you run the CPU as designed then it shouldn't be a problem, but there are reports of it delaminating after some time, causing reliability issues.

AMD still solder theirs, and it is unlikely to change in the future.

De-lidding wouldn't be necessary at all had Intel not made this retrograde step. Their CPUs run hot enough as it is.

[kevinfirth 1,393]

2 minutes ago, CloudSurfer said:

Non thread related content

Not 100% sure how this thread degenerating into an intel v AMD argument is going to assist my situation :p

Thanks to all who have contributed constructive suggestions and useful experience, I'm really grateful :)

[kevinfirth 1,393]

new development...

After considering previous suggestions, I took apart the whole system and attempted to straighten the slightly bent CPU pin.  On putting everything back together I now get Qcode 40 !

I pressed memOK button and hurrah, its POSTed into BIOS :)

I may upgrade the CPU cooler but I am not reseating that CPU again :p Nor will I overtighten the cooler clamping screws!

Many thanks to Martin and Westman particularly for helping :D 

Cheers K

Edited March 23, 2018 by kevinfirth

[kevinfirth 1,393]

But now on booting I get the windows logo, a blue screen saying your PC ran into a problem, and it restarts repeatedly :p

Oh well at least the hardware seems ok! 

 

[martin-w 3,235]

12 hours ago, CloudSurfer said:

Intel went with TIM because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

If you run the CPU as designed then it shouldn't be a problem, but there are reports of it delaminating after some time, causing reliability issues.

AMD still solder theirs, and it is unlikely to change in the future.

De-lidding wouldn't be necessary at all had Intel not made this retrograde step. Their CPUs run hot enough as it is.

 

 

I didn't say it was "better". It's not "better" in terms of thermal conductivity. 

Cost comes into it because of the complex procedure to solder onto a 14nm die, without cracking the die. The smaller the process, the more likely cracks in the die appear. That means you end up with more failed dies that need to be scraped. Way more expensive for Intel than TIM. So again, no, it's not a "design flaw". It's increased cost due to the technical difficulty of soldering onto 14nm.

 

 

Quote

 

Conclusion

Whenever I read sentences like “What a ripoff – Intel doesn’t even solder a 300 USD CPU” or “Why does intel save 2 USD on soldering” I’m thinking

Stop hating on Intel. Intel has some of the best engineers in the world when it comes to metallurgy. They know exactly what they are doing and the reason for conventional thermal paste in recent desktop CPUs is not as simple as it seems.

Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs.

Thinking about the ecology it makes sense to use conventional thermal paste. Gold and indium are rare and expensive materials. Mining of these materials is complex and in addition it’s polluting.

 

 

https://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

 

Quote

AMD still solder theirs, and it is unlikely to change in the future.

 

AMD are already using TIM instead of solder for their APU's. No, you can't assume at all that they wont switch to TIM for their CPU's as the process shrinks. Only AMD know if that will be the case or not. Not us! My prediction is that as the die size shrinks, cracked dies will become a nightmare with resulting increased costs. If they are to remain competitive, they may have no choice.

 

Quote

 

 

 

[martin-w 3,235]

35 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

new development...

After considering previous suggestions, I took apart the whole system and attempted to straighten the slightly bent CPU pin.  On putting everything back together I now get Qcode 40 !

I pressed memOK button and hurrah, its POSTed into BIOS :)

I may upgrade the CPU cooler but I am not reseating that CPU again :p Nor will I overtighten the cooler clamping screws!

Many thanks to Martin and Westman particularly for helping :D 

Cheers K

 

Good news Kevin. You've straightened the pin now, so I'm a bit late, but I find it helps to photograph the pins. That way I can enlarge the image and get a better idea of pin condition.

 

I'm a bit surprised you think you over tightened, as the Secufirm 2 system screws just stop, and cant be tightened further.  

[kevinfirth 1,393]

But now on booting I get the windows logo, a blue screen saying your PC ran into a problem, and it restarts repeatedly :p

Oh well at least the hardware seems ok! 

Cant seem to make any progress with the BSOD and constant restarting though :(

Says "system thread exception not handled" every time it blue screens.  basic research seems to indicate a driver incompatibility?  But I cant get into anything to address that :(  Every time win10 shows a quick msg saying "starting automatic repair" then restarts immediately... 

Edited March 23, 2018 by kevinfirth

[G-RFRY 1,710]

Try going into your bios to check the settings it may have upset the bios, depending on what MB you some can update the bios without going into windows, you can also try removing and replacing   your Cmos battery .

[martin-w 3,235]

6 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

But now on booting I get the windows logo, a blue screen saying your PC ran into a problem, and it restarts repeatedly :p

Oh well at least the hardware seems ok! 

Cant seem to make any progress with the BSOD and constant restarting though :(

Says "system thread exception not handled" every time it blue screens.  basic research seems to indicate a driver incompatibility?  But I cant get into anything to address that :(  Every time win10 shows a quick msg saying "starting automatic repair" then restarts immediately... 

 

OS reinstall? A bit of a pain I know. I would run without any overclock, optimised defaults until all is stable for a good few weeks. 

 

Must say, I've never had any issue like you have with any PC I've built. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by martin-w

[ehakan 2]

Here is a link that explains the situation and address an aplication that locate which driver/app cause BSOD.

http://www.troublefixers.org/laptops/fix-system-thread-exception-not-handled-in-windows-10/590/

You should load "optimised defaults" in BIOS as Martin stated.

[vortex681 806]

23 hours ago, CloudSurfer said:

Intel went with TIM because it is cheaper, not because it is better.

Very informative article linked by Martin above. This article explains the rationale of using a paste-type TIM rather than soldering in even more detail: https://medium.com/@OpenSeason/soldered-cpu-vs-cheap-paste-59fb96a4fca7

[CloudSurfer 16]

Awww come on! They're being cheap.

From your link:

Quote

It is generally accepted that the new approach to use paste based TIM1 since the Ivy Bridge days has lowered the performance of the chips by limiting overclocks due to TJ max.

[...]

Intel’s thermal solution is designed to meet more requirements than just performance; reliability and manufacturability is as important from a profit standpoint.

>>> Cheaper to produce = more profit.

Edited March 24, 2018 by CloudSurfer

[martin-w 3,235]

8 hours ago, CloudSurfer said:

Awww come on! They're being cheap.

From your link:

 

 

You have been given links, read them and make up your own mind. If you want to debate it further I would start a new thread if I were you.

But lets no hijack Kevin's thread any longer.