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lifejogger

At Last - Europe is Safe From B-17s

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Guest jaapverduijn

They're a bunch of monumental dimwits, these European "parlementarians" are. Together they form a truly bottomless money pit, which every now and then (in grateful recognition of received billions) erupts a completely idiotic new law or regulation. As for general aviation in Europe: it's doomed. Dooooomed...Be, nevertheless, well!Jaap Verduijn.

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Guest

And people wonder why I'm an outspoken opponent of this so-called EU "constitution"...While we celebrate freedom from German occupation (and French oppression under Napoleon by proxy) we stand ready to abandon our sovereignty to France and Germany under the guise of closer cooperation and more power to the EU.The ONLY countries that will have any power left under the new rules are France and Germany because of the way the distribution of power is designed under those rules.

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Guest Terry_ABQ

Your EU problems sound kind of like what we have to battle here with the United Nations. They think they rule this part of the world. Closer to home, we have had problems when the Confederate Air Force (CAF) was forced to change it's name to the Commemorative Air Force so we would not offend anyone. So far, they are still able to carry out their mission to remind us of the price we had and are continuing to have pay for our freedom. Once these proud birds and brave men from the past are gone, who knows how the history books will be re-written.Terry

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Guest

it's worse here in that the EU doesn't just think they rule the place, they actually do (or will soon).Worse still, the ruling bodies of the EU aren't even elected.

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Just a few quotes from a previous thread...From:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search"The risk is low and the premium should reflect this.""Read into it what you like, but I don't think this helps General Aviation in an already difficult region, IMHO.""I've checked GA forums and, while there's concern about the possible increase in premiums, there's no suggestion that cover won't be available. Indeed, the UK department for Transport reported that "The minimum amounts of insurance proposed for each of these categories are broadly in line with existing commercial practice, thereby minimizing the impact on UK non-commercial aircraft operators."Ummm I guess this could be called an impact.... :-)"I'm not sure how this is different. Suffice to say that there are a number of, so far, unsubstantiated anti-EU stories and the impeding death of GA circulating at the moment."Well, it seems to me to have begun."I put forward evidence to show it seems to be no big deal in the UK."Well, the big deal it seems is beginning to take a toll.I wonder what other effects this will have. It usually takes a moronic regulation like this one that starts the momentum of a downfall for all types of GA flying. It seems this needs to be rectified, but I wonder if anyone even cares.I guess when it comes to WWII, some think we should just "get over it". Nope. This is just an example of things in the alleged EU that are not leading down a path that will keep GA going like it was before in my opinion.BTW - I am talking about the entire EU not an individual country here.Here is the Regulation now in effect:http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat...0en00010006.pdfRegards,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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Guest

Of course it's not a big deal. Only a few war mongering rich kids will now no longer be able to show off their militaristic toys.Or that's the reasoning the leftwing lunatics will apply.

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I see part of my response to another thread has been quoted in this one as follows:"I've checked GA forums and, while there's concern about the possible increase in premiums, there's no suggestion that cover won't be available. Indeed, the UK department for Transport reported that "The minimum amounts of insurance proposed for each of these categories are broadly in line with existing commercial practice, thereby minimizing the impact on UK non-commercial aircraft operators."There are 18,000 aircraft on the UK register of which 17,000 are less than 15k MTOW. So I stand by my statement that the impact has been minimised on GA. Joe: can you provide any hard information as to the effect in other EU countries? I know I've asked that before but perhaps you have some now?

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Guest

Yes, cover WILL be offered. BUT the majority of people won't be able to afford it. In fact, most only barely can afford to fly at the current rates and general aviation was declining already because of the increased fuel cost and reduced income of many with the poor economy.This will for many be the last straw, forcing them to abandon flying for financial reasons.

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Guest Xmech

(sighs) This world would probably be a much better place without politicians....

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This is sad to hear. One of the most beautiful sounds there is to hear, is when they start those 4 Wright-R-1820-97 engines. As a crew member of the Gulf Coast Wing of the Commemorative Air Forces's B-17G"Texas Raiders" it would be a great loss to me if I could never fly in here again. John

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Guest Shalomar

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!I know this is an older thread, but I was astounded when I heard this on a local news radio station. Northeast Airport invited the Liberty Bell, another B17 to fly out of there for a day, offering rides for about $350 for 1/2 hour just like they did last year. But days before the event, the Philadelphia PA USA Risk Management Office told the organisers they needed 25 million in liability insurance or no go. If this happens in other towns, it could have a serious impact. What about insurance so if on a demonstration flight an F4U or something goes into the crowd??? A city might fear liability so much they require an unreasonable amount, tix go up, less people come, finally *the planes don't fly*. Eventually, enough of this could be *worse* than the EU fiasco, at least for historic aircraft buffs.It's a sad day when a trend like this becomes so obvious.

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Maybe if we changed it from "warbirds" to "historical aircraft", some politicians might be too stupid to know what it is. I sometimes get the feeling that, in these days of political correctness, this could be the underlying reason for some of these idiotic decisions.

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Guest ThrottleUp

---------------------------------------------------------------They're a bunch of monumental dimwits, these European "parlementarians" are.---------------------------------------------------------------I could'nt have said it better myself! :)I avoid all the news channels because I know I'll end up throwing the couch at the TV.

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Guest beana51

Hi, relabeling? why not.A war bird by any other name is still just that,a war bird. This PM on the tube, the history channel had the most informative,and fascination air craft(War birds),I have ever seen.I'm sure others are aware of them.They were German and Japanese late war creations. Desperate people with absolutly the greatest designs of war birds for knocking down American,and its allies planes over their country's Sky's.It became apparent we did not have the war won in the late 44,@45 yrs.Hypothetically what if they succeeded in knocking the 17s,29s and the whole fighter complement,out of the sky,and changed the outcome. It was close. Would they still now be celebrating there memories with their war birds? I think they would. Probably would have huge parades at midnight ,carrying torches.After all they gave us the Jets,swept wings,X-wings,air to ,air stealth,and all we make take for granted.Much of which,after the war, was used to improve our Air power. Even Mr. Von Braun. He helped us a little ,do he?However, are we now to believe its not nice for us to remember,and honor those over 100,000 young boys who gave it all, up,and over there,and in War birds.? There are not many left of that generation, Teary eyed old men who when at the sound of a smokeing, flameing,coughing radiel,warbird, drift back,in minds eye, to their youth,and remember. Speaking for my self,I remember them. VIN SOME OLD WISE GUY, FROM SOMEWHERE ONCE SAID, "ONLY THE DEAD SEE THE END OF WAR"

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The regulation requires insurance for total claims up to US$80 million. Can anyone really say that they don't believe that a worst case scenario - a fully fueled crash into an apartment building, say, could not generate claims totaling that much?As for the likelihood of that type of accident, that's what the free market will determine. Insurers actuaries will figure out the (very remote) chance of such a worst case accident, and the more likely risks of lesser claims, right down to someone claiming for a ding on their cars paint if a rivet falls out in flight, and set the premiums accordingly. As the Sally B is apparently doing, these risks can even be calculated on a per-flight basis, with the premiums being higher for a flight over downtown London than for an offshore flight past a beach.I love to see these historical planes flying, but at the same time, there does need to be coverage arranged so that if something does go wrong people are not left financially hanging because the operator didn't have enough insurance.Richard

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Guest Shalomar

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!I do have a one million dollar liability policy on my 6 pound remote control plane!!! It's included with my AMA membership and I get a snazzy magazine too. But AMA has had to struggle and go thru multiple companies to find someone with a premium comensurate to risk.Wouldn't want to have to insure 18,000 pounds...Best Regards, Donny:-wave

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Guest

Not in Europe! There are very strict limits to the amount people can be awarded in claims money here.And the passengers would be signing wavers stating they can't claim damages in case of an accident.Politicians here want to get rid of the warmongering airshows though, as well as of the polluting rich man's game that's general aviation.That's why such idiotic things are enacted here.

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In the UK at least there are no limits on damages that can be awarded for death or injury. We're not just talking about passengers but 3rd parties on the ground with no involvement with the flight.Anyway, waivers purporting to limit liability for death or injury are likely to be declared void by the courts on public policy grounds."Notice Required by European Community Regulation 2027/97 As Amended by Regulation No. 889/2002Compensation in the case of death or injuryThere are no financial limits to the liability for passenger injury or death. For damages up to

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