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pegruder

Flight Sim Labs A320 vs Flight Factor A320?

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8 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

where I might get lost is when failures happen and knowing how to respond ...

If you think about the AF447 disaster, that's an issue even RL pilots have.


"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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3 hours ago, mikealpha said:

Thete was an interesting remark some days ago by Blackbox711, who is regularly streaming both at Twitch. He`s quite independent regarding platforms, and he`s real pilot with 20000 hours on A320, 747 and 737.

However, there was a short discussion regarding the dreaded term `study level`. What is that, and even more important : For whom ? For beginners, for experienced simmers, or even for real pilots ?   Well, what he said was no Airliner Addon can be study level for real pilots, the price tag for that would be significantly higher. But he also said the FSL comes close. And anything else is nowhere near to that.  

I watch his streams since months and I think that is related to depth , details and so on.

Now, as others have mentioned, FF is somewhere at version 0.8, while FSL is out already since quite some time. So I think any comparision should be made maybe in a year, but not now.

Certainly a valid point.  I'm going to give it a go in VR (how I normally fly the FSL version) and see how things feel.  Its tough to judge one on 2D and the other in VR.  Approach and landing however felt fantastic last night - but again its a tough call because frame rates are so different.  If I could keep P3D up at 40 or better the entire time who knows what the FSL version would feel like lol!  I know some people say stop chasing FPS ect, but I find once FPS is around 20 control inputs feel a bit delayed which can cause me to overcorrect.


Chris DeGroat   P3D v4.4 | 737NGX | FSL A320 |FS2Crew NGX Reboot | ProATCx | Pilot2ATC | AS16+ASCA | FlyInside

XP11 | JAR A320+BSS | XEnviro | FlyInside

i9 9900k OC'd 5.0Ghz All Cores | 64GB RAM | 2TB Samsung EVO SSD (1TB x 2 in RAID 0) | Asus ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti | Rift CV1 | Vive Pro

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59 minutes ago, pegruder said:

  If I could keep P3D up at 40 or better the entire time who knows what the FSL version would feel like lol!  I know some people say stop chasing FPS ect, but I find once FPS is around 20 control inputs feel a bit delayed which can cause me to overcorrect.

fps is not the key alone. With your PC specs you should well be able to run the FSL at 30fps. But the key is not only that fps, you need to sync them to your monitor to get a smooth experience.

Again by the aforementioned Blackbox711, there a video at Youtube showing all this. Couldn't sum it up any better :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSAM8i1YpH0

Now, besides that, it certainly depends on your Addons. If you pump up your P3D with Addons, you will at some point struggle keeping that fps. For any Addon, I check exclusively with the FSLabs if I still get the 30 fps. And if not, I simply remove it without further notice.

Same story with X-Plane. With Mesh and Simheaven X-Europe and Addon Airports and a decent Weather Addon (there isn't any yet comparable to AS in P3D), I'm almost sure the FF will struggle as well.

Mike

 

 


1. A320 home cockpit (FSLabs, Skalarki), P3Dv5  Main PC : I7-8700K, GTX1080Ti

2. FSLabs A3xx, P3Dv5. Gigabyte Aorus 17G YC, I7-10700K, RTX 3080

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2 hours ago, mikealpha said:

Same story with X-Plane. With Mesh and Simheaven X-Europe and Addon Airports and a decent Weather Addon (there isn't any yet comparable to AS in P3D), I'm almost sure the FF will struggle as well.

No, it doesn‘t. With all the and-ons you mention, fps in the FF rarely dips below 30 fps and it is very smooth (as X-Plane is generally smoother than P3D at the same fps). In the FSL fps still fluctuate wildly and are below 30 fps most of the time even with moderate settings. Performance wise the FF is significantly better. 


i7-10700K@5.0GHz ∣ Asus ROG Strix Gaming Z490-E Gaming ∣ 32Gb@3600MHz ∣ AMD Radeon 6900 XT

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I have both now.

By far the FF A320, by far... And I wasn't expecting it to be this good I have to confess...

Did a couple circuits around LPPT with the nasty weather we have around here today, and although I didn't have much time to study / dedicate to the FF, I must admit that every single aspect about it was rather positive, certainly a lot more than the same regarding the FSLabs A320...

I did buy two weeks ago a P3Dv42 month license to test the latest version of the FSLabs... Well... what can I say other than it followed the usual route after a few days... Faced various install problems, was able to circumvent it and finally test the aircraft but I wasn't convinced. 

During the last two days tried to make my mind about the FF A320 or the Toliss A319. I may still invest on the Toliss later, but for the time being I am very positively impressed by the FF.

 

Edited by jcomm

Use your flight simulators with a well defined purpose...

Don't expect them to be "perfect" or to fully cover all aspects of simulated flight...

Try to enjoy it instead of stressing...

 

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4 hours ago, jcomm said:

Did a couple circuits around LPPT with the nasty weather we have around here today, and although I didn't have much time to study / dedicate to the FF, I must admit that every single aspect about it was rather positive, certainly a lot more than the same regarding the FSLabs A320...

What about single engine performance close to VMCA? I know that's one thing you and me like to test. :-)


"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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15 hours ago, carlito777 said:

 In the FSL fps still fluctuate wildly and are below 30 fps most of the time even with moderate settings. Performance wise the FF is significantly better. 

Maybe so, but at some point I don't get it regarding this performance discussion.

We're talking about an Addon, that comes close to being useful for pilot training, and nothing else coming close to it.

I had a Eurowings pilot sitting at my FS PC checking out the FSL some months ago. He came in with some sort of funny "oh no, Mr. Mike with his Airbus addons' attitude. That quickly changed to a serious and astonished face expression. And remarks like, "wow everything sounds real", "it's the same amount of steering input I need in the real Plane, "oh, look at the N1 reaction with Engine anti-ice on", "the brake temperature reacts like real"  (delayed he meant :-) ).That continued throughout the entire flight, mentioning around two dozens of small details I didn't even notice before, although I spend time with the A320 since 20 years. And after trying some of the failures, it ended up him spending 5000$ for a PC and input devices.

The FF is very remarkable, but it is not there yet and that's not meant as a letdown at all. It maybe is, who knows, in a year. As an A320 fan, I'll follow it with pleasure.

Performance ? Depends what you want. That level of details in the FSL needs resources, no one is aware of this ?? Take a fresh P3D install, be sensitive when installing other Addons with an "A320 comes first" attitude. Then you will get a smooth experience.

Treat the FSL like any other Airliner Addon and you might end up with Performance problems. That's not a surprise at all.

Mike

Edited by mikealpha
  • Upvote 1

1. A320 home cockpit (FSLabs, Skalarki), P3Dv5  Main PC : I7-8700K, GTX1080Ti

2. FSLabs A3xx, P3Dv5. Gigabyte Aorus 17G YC, I7-10700K, RTX 3080

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9 hours ago, Murmur said:

What about single engine performance close to VMCA? I know that's one thing you and me like to test. :-)

:-)  Yes, I did test it, actually one of the first items I tested in the FSLabs and the FF versions... It was also something I tested in the full flightsim ( Thales ) at Air Portugal training center during a 1hr simulator session that was kindly offered to me by the chief instructor at TAP, sme 10 yrs ago unfortunately without re-edition ....

I remember the reaction of the full flightsim ( which the pilots emphasize is not absolutely accurate in many aspects... it's a sim after all as they put it :-) ) and it's really tame... At cruise speed or right after V1 the aircraft systems promptly compensate for the asymmetric thrust, and additional effects, and only rudder trim has to be added to clear the sideslip component, maintaining only residual sideslip.

I've had very few time to test the FF A320, which I bought only yesterday after being in doubt about that one or the Toliss A319 from the author of the QPAC "engine", but the tests I made give me a smoother, more believable reaction under all sorts of circumstances, including ground handling under cross winds and turbulence even though this appears to be the only stance in which the FF uses the core XP physics model.

I also prefer the way flight envelope protection is modelled compared to the FSLabs approach. To give just one example, the pitch down protection at 30 º up 15 º dwn is smooth in the FF A320, like I felt it in the full flightsim, whereas in the FSLabs it is abrupt - the aircraft if you pull or push full fwd on the stick, stops instantly - very plastic for my liking... Same applies to bank protection, all under Normal law. I have yet to test extreme failure scenarios, including all sorts of combinations of ELAC, FAC and SEC malfunctions - that's the other sort of stuff I love to play with, and think will never happen IRL when travelling in an Airbus as a passenger :-)

Edited by jcomm
typos

Use your flight simulators with a well defined purpose...

Don't expect them to be "perfect" or to fully cover all aspects of simulated flight...

Try to enjoy it instead of stressing...

 

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So I've had some time with the FF in VR now.  I have to say I'm pretty impressed!  I setup the tiller so I can have a direct comparison with how I taxi in the FSL version and I have to say they are pretty close.  The only thing I can't directly compare is engine performance as I've only flown the IAE version in FSL.  One thing I noticed - I thought only the IAE version will accelerate a bit at engine idle with the brakes released?  I noticed on the FF version if I release the brakes I still get a bit of a roll.  

One thing that I noticed the most is the VC.  The FSL version seems a little 'smaller', or more claustrophobic feeling to me.  The FF version seems to at least 'feel' a bit more real.  Again - I'm 99% in VR (using flyinside) on both but when looking around I feel I'd hit my head on the windows where there seems to be more room in the FF version.  Also - readability of all the displays seems much better in the FF version.  This is crucial as a VR flyer as the resolution of the headsets aren't quite there yet.  The other thing I noticed most about the VC between the two - the FCU on the FSL seems to come at you on more of a 'head on' angle.  The FF seems to angle upwards some.  Again - I've never been in the cockpit of the A320, but this makes the top portion of the PFD actually readable for me - especially in VR.  In the FSL version, I have to kinda lean down to ensure my throttles are in the correct position, verify flight modes, ect.  Now it could be perspective, but one of the pilots I follow on Instagram, the FF VC seems to be more accurate to me.  

 

Just to touch on performance in the sim - the only addons I run are Active Sky, the FSL A320, Orbx NA, MyTraffic 6 (set to around 10%) and a few payware airports.  Nothing at least that I would think should be really hitting performance.  In XP I run OrthoXP, a few airports (payware/freeware), X-Life(about 40%), Xenviro & the bus.  Even at the same frame rates XP just seems smoother to me.  This is with ALOT of things turned off in P3D vs alot of things turned on in XP (autogen and a few other things).  This isnt even to touch on dynamic lighting in P3D destroys frame rates no matter what AA setting I'm on.  Anyway - I'm starting to get off topic and ramble.  Very curious to see how both buses and sims progress!

 

5 hours ago, mikealpha said:

Maybe so, but at some point I don't get it regarding this performance discussion.

We're talking about an Addon, that comes close to being useful for pilot training, and nothing else coming close to it.

I had a Eurowings pilot sitting at my FS PC checking out the FSL some months ago. He came in with some sort of funny "oh no, Mr. Mike with his Airbus addons' attitude. That quickly changed to a serious and astonished face expression. And remarks like, "wow everything sounds real", "it's the same amount of steering input I need in the real Plane, "oh, look at the N1 reaction with Engine anti-ice on", "the brake temperature reacts like real"  (delayed he meant :-) ).That continued throughout the entire flight, mentioning around two dozens of small details I didn't even notice before, although I spend time with the A320 since 20 years. And after trying some of the failures, it ended up him spending 5000$ for a PC and input devices.

The FF is very remarkable, but it is not there yet and that's not meant as a letdown at all. It maybe is, who knows, in a year. As an A320 fan, I'll follow it with pleasure.

Performance ? Depends what you want. That level of details in the FSL needs resources, no one is aware of this ?? Take a fresh P3D install, be sensitive when installing other Addons with an "A320 comes first" attitude. Then you will get a smooth experience.

Treat the FSL like any other Airliner Addon and you might end up with Performance problems. That's not a surprise at all.

Mike

2

Have you had him give the FF version a go and see his thoughts?  Curious how he'd compare the two as well :)


Chris DeGroat   P3D v4.4 | 737NGX | FSL A320 |FS2Crew NGX Reboot | ProATCx | Pilot2ATC | AS16+ASCA | FlyInside

XP11 | JAR A320+BSS | XEnviro | FlyInside

i9 9900k OC'd 5.0Ghz All Cores | 64GB RAM | 2TB Samsung EVO SSD (1TB x 2 in RAID 0) | Asus ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti | Rift CV1 | Vive Pro

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4 hours ago, pegruder said:

Have you had him give the FF version a go and see his thoughts?  Curious how he'd compare the two as well :)

Not yet, wouldn`t do the FF any service to do that now. 


1. A320 home cockpit (FSLabs, Skalarki), P3Dv5  Main PC : I7-8700K, GTX1080Ti

2. FSLabs A3xx, P3Dv5. Gigabyte Aorus 17G YC, I7-10700K, RTX 3080

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3 minutes ago, mikealpha said:

Not yet, wouldn`t do the FF any service to do that now. 

Fair enough!  One thing Im curious about - with the APU on and shutting down the engines, are all the displays supposed to cut off then immediately come back on?  Its like everything loses power when switching to the APU which seems abnormal to me.


Chris DeGroat   P3D v4.4 | 737NGX | FSL A320 |FS2Crew NGX Reboot | ProATCx | Pilot2ATC | AS16+ASCA | FlyInside

XP11 | JAR A320+BSS | XEnviro | FlyInside

i9 9900k OC'd 5.0Ghz All Cores | 64GB RAM | 2TB Samsung EVO SSD (1TB x 2 in RAID 0) | Asus ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti | Rift CV1 | Vive Pro

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Comparisons are all well and good but I can only afford one sim and that is X-Plane and try as I might I just can't get FSL A320 working in X-Plane ;-)  A proper comparison in this case would be the ToLisS A319 and the FFA320 as both are avaialble on the same sim and both should be the same in most part system wise.

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On 10/03/2018 at 4:01 AM, Rob Ainscough said:

I don't think you can go wrong with either version to be honest, both very high quality at different price points.

Not having manual trim (in most LAWs) was perhaps the biggest adjustment I had to make, but agree, it's easy to fly ... where I might get lost is when failures happen and knowing how to respond ... but that's not something I typically do ... yet.

Cheers, Rob.

 

Hi Rob, She is a beauty to fly and very satisfying, I think once you throw in a few failures you will breeze through them, the ECAM procedures will help you know what to do. I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs here, but blackbox 711 on youtube does some great tutorial videos on the A320 with lots of failures thrown in. Well worth a watch if you haven't seen them before.

 

Cheers

 

Neil

 

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