Cessna 310R Redux and Engine Sounds

[dbw1 444]

52 minutes ago, JesC said:

I agree. But I don't think that you have addressed the sounds at lower power (mp) settings. When manifold pressure is reduced below cruise power settings I would also anticipate some sound reductions and rpm decreases.

BTW I have more than a few hours flying 310's and 320's myself. Nonetheless I don't think that makes me an expert.

I'm just trying to understand this better. I'm suspecting there may be some sim based limitations that result in the use of only rpm or mp influenced sounds. Hopefully at some point Milviz may offer some insight to their reasoning and  methodology. Given the depth of this simulation I am sure this is something they have given a great deal of thought, study and consideration.

At least I have established that this is not an anomaly of my install. Progress!! :-)

Jesse

 

I’ll have more of a listen at low power settings as well...you may have heard things I missed. I think they’re pretty darn close though. For me I’m happy with them.

Dave

[fppilot 4,350]

2 hours ago, Ron Attwood said:

Did you know, there are 16 texture sheets per airplane?

 Seriously!  Certainly not the Burger King "have it your way" theme!  More like Mcdonalds! Take it or leave it! Your kids will rule!

Edited March 17, 2018 by fppilot

[raymie 81]

I have just finished a short flight in the "Original" Milviz C 310R. When I initiated my descent from cruise altitude, reduction of throttles (MP) brought about a reduction in "engine" sound. When I leveled off, increased throttles (MP) resulted in increased "engine" sound. I am assuming "engine" sound would be combustion\exhaust noise. This repeated itself as I continued to make my descent and then final approach to my destination airport. Once on final, prop levers pushed full forward did not result in the increased prop pitch sound that one now hears in the Redux version.

So if I understand some of the conversations here regarding this--then the sound package of the "Original" version is not accurate?? If that's the case, and it could be, then maybe that's why some of us are thinking there's a problem with the "Redux" version engine sounds of this wonderful aircraft. That was my initial response during my first flight of the Redux version, "hum, this does not sound right" because I was so use to the sound\throttle response of the original version. And by the way, I still enjoy both of these versions of this wonderful twin Cessna done by Milviz.

[Milviz 919]

The Redux sounds just fine...

Edited March 17, 2018 by Milviz

[n4gix 4,947]

10 hours ago, Wing said:

When the sim starts the fuel levers are set to "off" but the engines are running just fine.

This has been fixed and will be in a service update soon.

[whamil77 183]

The egregious errors in FSX/P3D have, over the years, conditioned many simmers without significant aviation experience to accept and believe many inaccuracies in the simulator and ,as a result, to question the validity of programming that is actually much closer to the real world.  FSX/P3D sound configurations model only fixed pitch propellers....period.  I don't know if the original authors knew little about aviation or if the few that did got overridden by the ones who didn't, but the errors are numerous and obvious to anyone who has significant flight time in a diversity of aircraft.  Among the most flagrant errors is sound configuration for anything other than a fixed pitch propeller.

Sound configuration files provide for pitch change and volume change independently between combustion and propeller and there is no connection allowed between power and prop.  In the real world of constant speed propellers, pitch changes only with RPM and RPM changes only with the propeller governor, not the throttle.  The exception occurs at very low power settings where the engine and/or the relative wind cannot spin the propeller fast enough to get to minimum governor speed.  In the real world we typically hear the prop get on the governor as RPM increases to approximately 1500 or so RPM when advancing the throttles on takeoff and in the landing flare as the throttles are reduced to near idle at very low airspeed.  Other than those situations, pitch changes only with a change in RPM setting with the propeller control.  

If the original authors had any significant aviation experience, they would have allowed the sound configuration file to control volume with the throttle and control pitch with the prop levers and allowed a connection between the two.  We could have approached a 99% sound solution for constant speed props with a setup like that.  The default FSX/P3D sound configuration provides about a 1% solution.  It provides for noise uncorrelated to anything in particular at governed RPM.  Developers have learned to "trick the system" and have begun moving combustion sound files into the prop configuration sections with pretty decent success.  It becomes about an 80% solution and is much closer to real world.

If we could control volume with the throttle without affecting pitch we could accurately simulate an engine "straining" under increased load without erroneously also changing the pitch of the sound.

I have modified many FSX/P3D aircraft with good success using the aforementioned method and I can tell you that within the constraints of the extremely poor sound configuration loop of FSX/P3D, this C310R sound system is as good as it gets.  Don't let the fact that the original one was different confuse you.  Like so many others, it was wrong.  This one is right. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by whamil77

[MartinRex007 390]

Bill, thanks for the clarification!

Cheers

Martin

Edited March 17, 2018 by MartinRex007

[raymie 81]

Yes, thank you for your helpful explanation on this topic!

[dbw1 444]

I agree with Wamill77....These sounds are very good as is the entire aircraft. Seeing how nice MilViz has made this aircraft maybe they could consider a Cessna 421 next......

Dave

[JesC 88]

 

2 hours ago, whamil77 said:

If the original authors had any significant aviation experience, they would have allowed the sound configuration file to control volume with the throttle.... 

If we could control volume with the throttle without affecting pitch we could accurately simulate an engine "straining" under increased load without erroneously also changing the pitch of the sound.

It is that volume change that I am missing, particularly when in the pattern and during approaches and landing. The lack of any audible sound changes just makes detection of fine power adjustments a bit more challenging. At least now I know that it is indeed a sim limitation and the Milviz sounds are their interpretation and their preferred solution.

That is exactly what I sought to discover and I hope everyone knows that I truly think this 310R Redux is a superb simulation, better than any I have experienced in quite a long time.

Jesse

[metzgergva 28]

On 3/17/2018 at 2:19 AM, JesC said:

I agree. But I don't think that you have addressed the sounds at lower power (mp) settings. When manifold pressure is reduced below cruise power settings I would also anticipate some sound reductions and rpm decreases.

BTW I have more than a few hours flying 310's and 320's myself. Nonetheless I don't think that makes me an expert.

I'm just trying to understand this better. I'm suspecting there may be some sim based limitations that result in the use of only rpm or mp influenced sounds. Hopefully at some point Milviz may offer some insight to their reasoning and  methodology. Given the depth of this simulation I am sure this is something they have given a great deal of thought, study and consideration.

At least I have established that this is not an anomaly of my install. Progress!! :-)

Jesse

 

Jesse, 

 I'm with you on this. Sure RPM change has a more noticable change, but MAP should have a noise change too as the engines are producing more power and exhaust noise and prop noise should vary- more in loudness than pitch. It is a basic limitiation in FS/P3D, but can be overcome, i.E. the ArezOnes soundpack does it.

Edited April 14, 2018 by metzgergva

[shivers9 1,174]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. I am pretty sure that Milviz has come pretty close to the real sounds of the Cessna 310 although I have not had to pleasure of flying one myself. I posted above about my early experience landing with the KPNS approach lights trying to "fly by ear". I think we notice the lack of sound from the engines because we just do not have the ability to "feel the airplane like you do in real life flying. We don't sense the speed, feel the vibrations and bumps like we do when we strap in to the real deal. There is also no real sense of decending or climbing, in other words no "seat of the pants" sensory inputs. This lack of inputs tend to make us more aware and dependent on the sounds  to make up for these short comings. 

We always want it as "real as it gets" but in this case,  that makes flying this beautiful Airplane a little more difficult. It kind of reminds me of the turbo props. Changing power in them has all the excitement and sound of setting your living room thermostat.

[aviatorbja 0]

I do not think the sound is correct for the engines in the C310 redux.  There are two sources of sound - one from the internal combustion (the explosions within the cylinders), and the other due to prop cutting through the air.    You should be able to hear a change in engine power when the MP is decreased, regardless of prop RPM.    there are many C310 videos on YouTube which illustrate this quite well.

As for the aerodynamics - they are very realistic.  I feel like I am flying an aircraft, not computer code.   All of the gauges have a very realistic response time, and I appreciate that.    It is a lovely flying plane.

 

Brian Andonian, BSE Aero Eng, MSE Systems Eng.

FAA commercial pilot #2600156

[n4gix 4,947]

Well, the engine sounds were recorded directly from a real C310R, so that part is authentic. Unfortunately however, the sound system for both FSX and Prepar3D are simplistic to the extreme. It is simply not possible to blend the various sounds such that they replicate the live experience.

Our sound engineer has done his very best to work within the limitations of the underlying sound engine and parameters.

I am delighted to hear that the panel/gauge system is performing so well. I spent many hours getting them working...

[dbw1 444]

3 hours ago, n4gix said:

Well, the engine sounds were recorded directly from a real C310R, so that part is authentic. Unfortunately however, the sound system for both FSX and Prepar3D are simplistic to the extreme. It is simply not possible to blend the various sounds such that they replicate the live experience.

Our sound engineer has done his very best to work within the limitations of the underlying sound engine and parameters.

I am delighted to hear that the panel/gauge system is performing so well. I spent many hours getting them working...

I've got about 1500 hours on one doing fire suppression bird-dogging and from my perspective the sounds are very good. This  MilViz aircraft is really a good reproduction of the real one.

Dave