FFPS:FFTF question

[SteveW 1,792]

Might help those with few cores (however many that might be, maybe 4 or less).

As I mention a lot - adding cores enables the task to grow over those extra cores, this works better than shutting down one process to accommodate more of another process.

[orbmis 9]

1 hour ago, SteveW said:

I set a limit with VSync=On/Unlimited or locked 29. With a 59-60Hz monitor I should get around 30 fps, with locked set we get the most stable fps.

Hi Steve,,

Lost me on that one...with Vsync=On/Unlimited, with a 59-60Hz monitor, shouldn't you be seeing about 60 fps. I'm following along with you on 'locking at 29' results in a fps around 30.

Unless you're using Nvidia Inspector to set the monitor at 1/2 refresh rate?

Trying hard to follow & understand this issue better.

Thx,

Mike

 

[SteveW 1,792]

Sorry - yes forgot to mention to get the half we can use the NPI fps limit 29.5 in that case - otherwise exactly goes to 59-60Hz.

[SteveW 1,792]

...The half vsync in FSX is to do with the timing of the sim to monitor. With P3D that is controlled by the desktop. The Vsync in P3D merely uses the refresh time to produce the next frame. P3D is a desktop window whereas FSX uses the exclusive mode (game mode).

[SteveW 1,792]

...so in short you set unlimited and you see 90fps, you then set Vsync=On with Unlimited and you have a 60Hz monitor you see 60fps and if you were looking at task manager you see the rendering LP relaxes. I'm often asked what to do about the 60Hz if we want 30Hz. We might be able to make a special profile in the NVidia control panel to run at 30 Hz or we might use NVidia profile inspector to set a limit of 30 (or 29.5).

If the CPU is always relaxed we can for example add more traffic and so on if there is capacity.

Edited March 19, 2018 by SteveW

[OzWhitey 3,353]

2 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Some Preliminary Results:

Testing FSPS FFTF Dynamic utility

FRAMES RANGE (while FFTF Dynamic is ACTIVE: 24 - 30

Target Frame Rate = 30 (Monitored with FRAPS)

SETTINGS: Scenery Objects

Scenery complexity = Dense
Autogen draw distance = High
Autogen vegetation density = Normal
Autogen building density = Normal

TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10

N.B. STATIC SITUATION
Scenery: Scotflight for ORBX (Edinburgh), Black Marble Vector
EGPH (Rwy 06) (Spring, Daytime - 1400hrs, Fair Weather)
Vehicle: Default F-22 Raptor

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........25fps (GPU Memory Used = 7080 MB)
Full Screen.....22      (GPU Memory Used = 7369 MB)

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........28fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing rapidly between 0.1 and 0.33)
Full Screen.....27

Target Frame Rate = Unlimited (Monitored with FRAPS)
(VSync and TB = OFF)

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........35fps
Full Screen.....32

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........35fps (Stable value of 0.33)
Full Screen.....32fps

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenery Objects sliders Maxed out:        

Scenery complexity = Extremely Dense
Autogen draw distance = Extremely High
Autogen vegetation density = Extremely Dense
Autogen building density = Extremely Dense

Target Frame Rate = 30

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........19fps (GPU Memory Used = 7182 MB)
Full Screen.....17    (GPU Memory Used = 7502 MB)

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........24fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing rapidly between 0.05 and 0.1)
Full Screen.....22

Target Frame Rate = Unlimited (Monitored with FRAPS)
(VSync and TB = OFF)

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........26fps
Full Screen.....22

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........26fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing between 0.1 and 0.14)
Full Screen.....22

Flew around for a bit, texture loading seemed okay and there were no blurries despite incredibly dense scenery. However, the sim soon became very stuttery with frame rates dropping to the low teens. Quite clearly this scenery area does not permit a smooth flying experience using the above settings and FFTF Dynamic struggles to ameliorate the situation although, as I said, there seemed to be no issues with the displayed textures.

I chose this Scenario quite deliberately as I know it to be quite taxing on my system and I thought it would be a good test area to see whether FFTF Dynamic adds anything of a positive nature performance wise.

By way of contrast, smooth flight without any issues was again achieved by reverting to my original settings at the top of the post, abandoning FFTF Dynamic and running frame rate unlimited.

Mike

There’s rather a lot of theoretical conjecture in this thread. Whilst that’s interesting on an intellectual level, it’s not overly helpful in a practical sense. At the end of the day, none of us know exactly how the p3d engine is coded.

So it’s good to see some test data. Thanks for posting this.

 

[GSalden 4,653]

The idea is to use settings inside P3D so you have a good framerate at a detailed airport . And the max framerate is accomplished by using a low FFTF value. Many people are using 0.01 for years now.

However , when flying at higher altitude the Sim there is less need for maximum 3D ground objects calculating and more need for terrain loading to flight blurries.

However , with a very low FFTF value like 0.01 there is less time for terrain loading than with the LM’s default 0.33.  

Example :

So If we use AGL mode and set FFTF on the ground to 0.05 and for 5000 ft we set 0.33 we have the best of both ways.

We then are using the low FFTF on the ground and it slowly gets up to LM’s default 0.33 which will be reached at 5000 ft. Above 5000 ft the value of 0.33 will still be used.

LM has choosen 0.33 as the best performance/terrain loading value. We change that by using 0.1 or 0.01 and sacrificie terrain loading for a higher framerate.

So in my setup I use AGL mode : 0.05 on the ground and 0.4 at 4000 ft and higher. 

All former terrain loading issues ( 5820K 6 core ) are gone because the Sim now has more time for terrain loading. And I can benefit of the higher fps when being at a detailed airport. More fps on final too.

I am always sceptical about new “this is is” products , but after having tested it for 2,5 months I will never fly without it . Like I wrote on the first page : I now can land at AS Frankfurt Pro + Prealsoft Frankfurt + FTX Germany + bad weather + lots of AI aircraft without getting stutters or blurries. 

I have the same fps on the ground with 0.05 as without this program and using 0.01.

Up in the air I can maintain my framerate and have more cpu time for terrain loading. ( with a higher FFTF value you will have a slightly lower max framerate than when using 0.01. However we always can achieve a higher framerate when flying high , so we better have max terrain loading ).

There is no rocketscience involved here. It is very clear and very sample Something we know for years .

Surely you can use lower settings so you Sim never crosses the red line and you have to use the correct AM for your system, but with this program I can use slightly higher settings and still have a good flight. And a Dynamic FFTF is helping a lot .

It is no more , no less...

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by GSalden

[Nyxx 6,993]

5 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Bert,

I know, but I was curious to see what could be achieved with regards to texture loading. As it turns out my system handles things quite nicely with or without the FFTF utility which is certainly worth knowing, don't you think?

Regards,

Mike

Flight simming is all about finding what works for ourselves and what does not. I really like it when people like yourself Mike test things so you can judge for yourself. Good man.

Have you tried simply locking at 30 FPS and using FFTF 0.01? VSync and TB ON?

[Rocky_53 1,566]

11 hours ago, SteveW said:

Perhaps there's too high a texture resolution set for the system somewhere - did you try setting the terrain res to 1 or 2m?

Hi Steve, sure, tried that. I have spent the past six months trying every single possible tweak, monitor refresh rate, slider setting known to man. Nothing, absolutely nothing helps with texture loading. EDIT, apologies, I should make it clear that issues are with photoscenery and not landclass sceneries. I also need to apologise to those who have seen me bang on for so long about this issue, over the past months, I'm sure it's becoming a boring old 'chestnut' 

[Cruachan 705]

9 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Some Preliminary Results:

Testing FSPS FFTF Dynamic utility

FRAMES RANGE (while FFTF Dynamic is ACTIVE: 24 - 30

Target Frame Rate = 30 (Monitored with FRAPS)

SETTINGS: Scenery Objects

Scenery complexity = Dense
Autogen draw distance = High
Autogen vegetation density = Normal
Autogen building density = Normal

TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10

N.B. STATIC SITUATION
Scenery: Scotflight for ORBX (Edinburgh), Black Marble Vector
EGPH (Rwy 06) (Spring, Daytime - 1400hrs, Fair Weather)
Vehicle: Default F-22 Raptor

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........25fps (GPU Memory Used = 7080 MB)
Full Screen.....22      (GPU Memory Used = 7369 MB)

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........28fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing rapidly between 0.1 and 0.33)
Full Screen.....27

Target Frame Rate = Unlimited (Monitored with FRAPS)
(VSync and TB = OFF)

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........35fps
Full Screen.....32

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........35fps (Stable value of 0.33)
Full Screen.....32fps

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenery Objects sliders Maxed out:        

Scenery complexity = Extremely Dense
Autogen draw distance = Extremely High
Autogen vegetation density = Extremely Dense
Autogen building density = Extremely Dense

Target Frame Rate = 30

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........19fps (GPU Memory Used = 7182 MB)
Full Screen.....17    (GPU Memory Used = 7502 MB)

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........24fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing rapidly between 0.05 and 0.1)
Full Screen.....22

Target Frame Rate = Unlimited (Monitored with FRAPS)
(VSync and TB = OFF)

FFTF Dynamic Inactive:

Window...........26fps
Full Screen.....22

FFTF Dynamic Active:

Window...........26fps (Dynamic Activity noted with values changing between 0.1 and 0.14)
Full Screen.....22

Flew around for a bit, texture loading seemed okay and there were no blurries despite incredibly dense scenery. However, the sim soon became very stuttery with frame rates dropping to the low teens. Quite clearly this scenery area does not permit a smooth flying experience using the above settings and FFTF Dynamic struggles to ameliorate the situation although, as I said, there seemed to be no issues with the displayed textures.

Hi Steve,

Your contributions, as ever, have been most welcome and certainly invaluable towards helping us understand what is happening and I thank you for that. However, one (did I say one..lol?!) observation still puzzles me:

You will have noted that my initial testing was carried out with the F-22 Raptor sitting on Rwy 06 at EGPH, i.e. a STATIC situation. Using conservative slider settings, why do I see rapidly fluctuation activity of the FFTF value with a fixed frame rate of 30? If Texture loading has completed and rendered to screen why then does this behaviour continue? On the other hand, with an unlimited target frame rate the FFTF value quickly achieves a stable value of 0.33 and remains there.

There is no doubt that by using FFTF Dynamic with a frame rate lock of 30 I can gain a few FPS, which is helpful while taxiing around a complex airport. However, for me there is a down side as I start to witness frequent micro-stuttering during flight. 

Regards,

Mike

Edited March 19, 2018 by Cruachan
Added ‘Dynamic’ to FFTF in last para.

[GSalden 4,653]

57 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Steve,

Your contributions, as ever, have been most welcome and certainly invaluable towards helping us understand what is happening and I thank you for that. However, one (did I say one..lol?!) observation still puzzles me:

You will have noted that my initial testing was carried out with the F-22 Raptor sitting on Rwy 06 at EGPH, i.e. a STATIC situation. Using conservative slider settings, why do I see rapidly fluctuation activity of the FFTF value with a fixed frame rate of 30? If Texture loading has completed and rendered to screen why then does this behaviour continue? On the other hand, with an unlimited target frame rate the FFTF value quickly achieves a stable value of 0.33 and remains there.

There is no doubt that by using FFTF with a frame rate lock of 30 I can gain a few FPS, which is helpful while taxiing around a complex airport. However, for me there is a down side as I start to witness frequent micro-stuttering during flight. 

Regards,

Mike

Hi Mike,

First you need a stable base : balanced settings and a correct AM.

If you see micro stutters during flight it means that your sim is dropping below 30 . With a higher FFTF value there is less cpu  time for performance as more time is used for terrain loading.

In most cases a major airport with a large city nearby is a good place to set sliders. If it was me I would set FFTF value to 0.2 and then set all sliders. If I now adjust FFTF to 0.05 I have some breathing room left.

When flying I might set FFTF to 0.3 at 7000 ft or at 10000 ft. Now I will have more time for terrain loading.

You can set the minimum FFTF value to 2500 ft  and max to 10000 ft. Up to 2500 it uses the minimum FFTF value . Between 2500 - 10000 the FFTF value gradually goes up to its maximum value. Above 10000 ft it stays on that maximum value.

You can also set ground to 0.05 and 15000 ft to 0.3. That would probably help you.

Just test some settings and you will find your best values.

regards, Gerard

 

 

[Guest]

I have been using FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.8 for a couple of weeks now and it has definitely reduced blurry's and doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect on performance on the ground or in the air. Also I don't seem to be finding myself outrunning autogen either i.e. all the building are there when I arrive. Not sure it that is FFTF. I also use TextureMaxLoad=90 so that might be due to that.

I was surprised at at how high I could go with these values. I was expecting expecting to see an FPS drop and stutters with FFTF but there where non that I noticed.

I also have my FPS set to unlimited with Vsync and my display set to 30hz

[GSalden 4,653]

8 minutes ago, Avidean said:

I have been using FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.8 for a couple of weeks now and it has definitely reduced blurry's and doesn't seem to have any detrimental effect on performance on the ground or in the air. Also I don't seem to be finding myself outrunning autogen either i.e. all the building are there when I arrive. Not sure it that is FFTF. I also use TextureMaxLoad=90 so that might be due to that.

I was surprised at at how high I could go with these values. I was expecting expecting to see an FPS drop and stutters with FFTF but there where non that I noticed.

I also have my FPS set to unlimited with Vsync and my display set to 30hz

Very well done.

The advantage with this program is that you could set a lower FFTF value for  ground so you can add a little more detail ( SC , Traffic etc ) .

[Afterburner 373]

Hello,

I am the one who made the video about FPS limitation and FFTF, as linked by Nyxx.

It has been my experience that if you use low FFTF values, you risk getting blurries and late autogen loading ONLY if you fly over complex scenery, such as LA in ORBX Socal (as in my video), SF in Nocal and big cities in other regions in combination with a lot of AI-traffic and CPU-intensive features.

If you fly at high altitude, the CPU load is usually much lower, and you can achieve high FPS if you use the unlimited setting. If your unlimited FPS is, let's say, more than 50, and you limit your FPS to 30 while using FFTF=0.01, you won't necessarily risk blurries, because the computer has plenty of CPU reserves, which it dedicates to building the scenery.

On the other hand, if your unlimited FPS over a big city is 20-ish, and you use a target FPS of 30 in combination with FFTF=0.01, then the system will aim at maintaining a higher frame rate, while incurring late texture and autogen loading. In that case, there are two ways to counter these effects: You can either increase FFTF, OR lower your FPS to below 20. The latter would have the same effect on FPS as increasing the FFTF value anyway.

Whether setting a high FFTF (such as 0.8) has any detrimental effect obviously depends on the unlimited FPS that you can achieve in that situation. For example, if you use low-resource planes, little or no AI traffic and a not overly complex scenery, and you get an unlimited FPS of 60+, limiting the FPS to 30 in combination with FFTF=0.8 will easily maintain your FPS at the set value - namely 30. However, if you are in a complex scenery setting, such as in my video, having the default FFTF=0.33 already can reduce the FPS from 23 (if unlimited) to 15 or so, while the visuals are unchanged. Using higher FFTF values in these situations would only make your FPS worse.

[SteveW 1,792]

3 hours ago, Rockliffe said:

Hi Steve, sure, tried that. I have spent the past six months trying every single possible tweak, monitor refresh rate, slider setting known to man. Nothing, absolutely nothing helps with texture loading. EDIT, apologies, I should make it clear that issues are with photoscenery and not landclass sceneries. I also need to apologise to those who have seen me bang on for so long about this issue, over the past months, I'm sure it's becoming a boring old 'chestnut' 

Not at all Rockliffe keep looking. I'm going to do some looking into this problem later this week will see if I can find anything