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6 hours ago, cj-ibbotson said:

I have tried plus 100% and plus 50% in voltage and both trigger crashes quickly. Even reducing the core and memory clock speeds to non factory overclocked speeds in 1080ti crashes SIM. I will try 5% but doubt it will help me

Chris

 

Chris

I'm a bit confused you say you've increased your default voltage setting by 100% and 50% I believe this is not what you actually meant to say since that would be a doubling of the voltage compared to the 5-10% increase I suggested and the other individual found to be useful.

Joe

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6 minutes ago, joepoway said:

Chris

I'm a bit confused you say you've increased your default voltage setting by 100% and 50% I believe this is not what you actually meant to say since that would be a doubling of the voltage compared to the 5-10% increase I suggested and the other individual found to be useful.

Joe

Yes it is what I meant. I have tried adjusting core voltage to the max Afterburner allows..+100% and I've also tried it at +50%. Given it still crashed for Comair25 we can rule that out as a fix. I've dug out an old Gtx480 card which I will fit. Nightmare getting access into my pc due to the desk and cables plus won't be capable of testing like for like. Only way I can connect is hdmi instead of display port and old card doesn't support 4k. I'll quickly try 5-10% before changing cards

Chris

Edited by cj-ibbotson

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18 minutes ago, cj-ibbotson said:

Yes it is what I meant. I have tried adjusting core voltage to the max Afterburner allows..+100% and I've also tried it at +50%. Given it still crashed for Comair25 we can rule that out as a fix. I've dug out an old Gtx480 card which I will fit. Nightmare getting access into my pc due to the desk and cables plus won't be capable of testing like for like. Only way I can connect is hdmi instead of display port and old card doesn't support 4k. I'll quickly try 5-10% before changing cards

Chris

Good luck, I have a good overclocked GTX 670 card in case I ever have to swap.

Joe

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1 hour ago, joepoway said:

Good luck, I have a good overclocked GTX 670 card in case I ever have to swap.

Joe

I returned gpu settings to default (from reduced Power Limit of 75%), raised Core Voltage by +10%, sim crashed after about an hour 😞

Will stick the ancient GTX480 in it tomorrow night and test

Chris

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1 hour ago, cj-ibbotson said:

I returned gpu settings to default (from reduced Power Limit of 75%), raised Core Voltage by +10%, sim crashed after about an hour 😞

Will stick the ancient GTX480 in it tomorrow night and test

Chris

I feel your pain Chris, I wish you the best. You might want to delete your shaders and cfg files after installing the "high powered" GTX480. Your settings will rebuild at a very low level but you're just interested in seeing if you can light switch off the DXGI crash.

Joe

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Just tried another flight with the FSLab Bus. DXGI Hung 3 hours in. I know I need to dig that 780 out and try it, its just having to go downstairs and pull it out of the old comp.

 

EDIT.. just ran the card in debug mode. Nothing changed and still got the error.

Edited by comair25

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16 minutes ago, garymcginnis said:

For those having these issues, what windows 10 update are you using?

I got Device Hung crashes on a test setup using Windows 8.1 so it is not a Windows 10 issue. Windows 10 brings out updates at least once a week.

My son is home from university this weekend so I've talked him into bringing his gtx1080 which I will test instead of my 1080ti

Chris

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32 minutes ago, cj-ibbotson said:

I got Device Hung crashes on a test setup using Windows 8.1 so it is not a Windows 10 issue. Windows 10 brings out updates at least once a week.

My son is home from university this weekend so I've talked him into bringing his gtx1080 which I will test instead of my 1080ti

Chris

Like I meant build version. I was just curious since I have all w10 updates disabled via a few hacks.

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1 hour ago, garymcginnis said:

Like I meant build version. I was just curious since I have all w10 updates disabled via a few hacks.

I got them in a current build and also a 1703 build with updates immediately disabled after the OS was installed

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4 hours ago, cj-ibbotson said:

I got them in a current build and also a 1703 build with updates immediately disabled after the OS was installed

Ok

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Right, I borrowed my son's GTX1080 on Saturday.  Fitted it, reinstalled the drivers, cleared the shaders.  Ran on default clock speeds, power limit etc...and it ran fine.  In fact performance seemed better than the 1080ti.  Left sim running for 6 hours and no crash.  Not extensive tests as I had to give it back as he was returning back to University today.  Plugged my 1080ti back in, tried the new driver..DXGI crash within 5 mins with default clock speeds.  Installed 399.24 which was working fine with a reduced Power Limit of 75% but tested it at 100%..crashed in 15 mins.  So it does appear either my 1080ti has some tiny fault which no other software is detecting except Prepar3D or Prepar3D cannot deal with my particular card (as all cards I imagine are different like cpus, even if the same model).  I dont know what to do, doubt Amazon would accept a return as it is 11 months old and I dont fancy paying £20 plus pounds for registered post which probably cant even compensate for the value of the card

Chris

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7 hours ago, cj-ibbotson said:

Right, I borrowed my son's GTX1080 on Saturday.  Fitted it, reinstalled the drivers, cleared the shaders.  Ran on default clock speeds, power limit etc...and it ran fine.  In fact performance seemed better than the 1080ti.  Left sim running for 6 hours and no crash.  Not extensive tests as I had to give it back as he was returning back to University today.  Plugged my 1080ti back in, tried the new driver..DXGI crash within 5 mins with default clock speeds.  Installed 399.24 which was working fine with a reduced Power Limit of 75% but tested it at 100%..crashed in 15 mins.  So it does appear either my 1080ti has some tiny fault which no other software is detecting except Prepar3D or Prepar3D cannot deal with my particular card (as all cards I imagine are different like cpus, even if the same model).  I dont know what to do, doubt Amazon would accept a return as it is 11 months old and I dont fancy paying £20 plus pounds for registered post which probably cant even compensate for the value of the card

Chris

Chris

I thought this was your issue based on all you had done in your testing.

I have a friend that was having a similar issue with DXGI crashes with his 1080ti but he was also having some full BSOD crashes. We determined his CPU voltage needed to be increased to handle his 5.2 GHz overclock.

After bumping his CPU voltage up he no longer had any BSOD CPU crashes and ironically he stopped having DXGI errors as well.

I'm wondering if there's a chance you may have a power supply issue feeding your 1080ti card and perhaps the GTX1080 didn't require the same amount of power and therefore it ran OK?

So my assumption would be you have a problem with your 1080ti or a problem with insufficient or "unclean stable" power being supplied to it. I'm not sure what the power consumption delta between the two cards is but if it's significant that could point to a power supply issue. Perhaps you could download the free version of 3DMark and stress test your graphics card to verify a card issue. There may be better software out there to test your 1080ti I'm just not familiar with them.

Good luck and contact Amazon anyway to see what they say it is under 1 year old.

Joe

 

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16 hours ago, joepoway said:

Chris

I thought this was your issue based on all you had done in your testing.

I have a friend that was having a similar issue with DXGI crashes with his 1080ti but he was also having some full BSOD crashes. We determined his CPU voltage needed to be increased to handle his 5.2 GHz overclock.

After bumping his CPU voltage up he no longer had any BSOD CPU crashes and ironically he stopped having DXGI errors as well.

I'm wondering if there's a chance you may have a power supply issue feeding your 1080ti card and perhaps the GTX1080 didn't require the same amount of power and therefore it ran OK?

So my assumption would be you have a problem with your 1080ti or a problem with insufficient or "unclean stable" power being supplied to it. I'm not sure what the power consumption delta between the two cards is but if it's significant that could point to a power supply issue. Perhaps you could download the free version of 3DMark and stress test your graphics card to verify a card issue. There may be better software out there to test your 1080ti I'm just not familiar with them.

Good luck and contact Amazon anyway to see what they say it is under 1 year old.

Joe

 

Hi Joe, the 1080 card only needed a single 8 pin power cable, my Ti needs an 8 and a 6 pin.  The card has been well and truly stress tested using the Heaven, Valley and Superposition Benchmark tools by Unigine.  It was also stress tested with Furmark and ran Destiny 2 flawlessly on extreme settings at 4k resolution.  All this leaves me confused how it could be the gpu etc 😞 PSU is 1000W OCZ Gold which is only a couple of years old.  Earlier this yr I did get a warning when I tried booting that the gpu needed power cables connected..of course they were connected.  Got message a couple of times then it booted fine.  I changed the cables and the ports they plug into on the psu (its modular) and havent had the error since.  Absolute nightmare rewiring a psu with cable management so hoping its not that.  Have been toying with a new 9900K build so might wait till then.  Might send Amazon a message about gpu see what they say

Chris

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1 hour ago, cj-ibbotson said:

Hi Joe, the 1080 card only needed a single 8 pin power cable, my Ti needs an 8 and a 6 pin.  The card has been well and truly stress tested using the Heaven, Valley and Superposition Benchmark tools by Unigine.  It was also stress tested with Furmark and ran Destiny 2 flawlessly on extreme settings at 4k resolution.  All this leaves me confused how it could be the gpu etc 😞 PSU is 1000W OCZ Gold which is only a couple of years old.  Earlier this yr I did get a warning when I tried booting that the gpu needed power cables connected..of course they were connected.  Got message a couple of times then it booted fine.  I changed the cables and the ports they plug into on the psu (its modular) and havent had the error since.  Absolute nightmare rewiring a psu with cable management so hoping its not that.  Have been toying with a new 9900K build so might wait till then.  Might send Amazon a message about gpu see what they say

Chris

You sure have had a tough issue.

I'm surprised your card would fail running P3D but it would pass a stress test run immediately after the P3D failure, very strange if it's a GPU and/or power supply issue.

I'm looking forward to my 9900K build as I'm still running a 6 year old  i5-2500K and I'll be looking into a 1080ti or the 2080 card although my GTX 1070 has been a champ with no issues.

Good luck I'm just about out of ideas

Joe 

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I have the chance to try a 1080 founders card or an ASUS 1080ti. Based on what others have said, I'm leaning towards the 1080.

 

Thoughts?

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8 minutes ago, garymcginnis said:

I have the chance to try a 1080 founders card or an ASUS 1080ti. Based on what others have said, I'm leaning towards the 1080.

 

Thoughts?

Settled on a PNY 1080. Just to test. We will see. This hobby is such a money pit.

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On 10/11/2018 at 4:14 PM, cj-ibbotson said:

Afraid I sold my previous GTX980. I rarely sell old hardware as not worth the hastle but it would have been good if I still had it. I do have an old 480 card. I've deleted cfg many times and had crashes even on a fresh install of the SIM with no changes to the display settings etc

Chris

Hi

 

Ive been following your posts (here and in LM forums). My GPU is the GTX980 and I too have the same DXGI error.

Windows 10. No overclocking. Both CPU and GPU by defaults. The crash is happening very randomly but mostly during dusk!

No tweak whatsoever. No NI. Have tested older drivers and the reg entries too. It keeps crashing at dusk! Shadow quality and distance both set to minimum = crash.

GPU passes stress test. Temps are cool. Other latest games run great, no problems.

Very frustrating as I'm running out of options too. 

Following your steps!...

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19 minutes ago, Miguel737NG said:

No tweak whatsoever. No NI. Have tested older drivers and the reg entries too. It keeps crashing at dusk! Shadow quality and distance both set to minimum = crash.

GPU passes stress test. Temps are cool. Other latest games run great, no problems.

This proves, beyond reasonable doubt, there is no solution to this problem.  I mean, you have done nothing.  No tweaks, no overclock of the GPU, just the default.  No incompatible textures too.  It cannot be LM's P3D or we would all be getting this error.  Your only possible solution is to completely reformat your HDD and reinstall Windows 10 and all of your software because thousands have the 1080ti and the same configuration and are not getting this error.  You did something wrong somewhere and the only solution is to reformat your drive(s) and start all over again.

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7 hours ago, Jim Young said:

This proves, beyond reasonable doubt, there is no solution to this problem.  I mean, you have done nothing.  No tweaks, no overclock of the GPU, just the default.  No incompatible textures too.  It cannot be LM's P3D or we would all be getting this error.  Your only possible solution is to completely reformat your HDD and reinstall Windows 10 and all of your software because thousands have the 1080ti and the same configuration and are not getting this error.  You did something wrong somewhere and the only solution is to reformat your drive(s) and start all over again.

With due respect Jim blaming user error is utter rubbish. I've been simming for 15 years, am extremely proficient in building pcs and installing operating systems and software. Personally I did nothing wrong. Whilst it's increasingly looking like it's not Prepar3D per se it is certainly having a hissy fit with some hardware. Like Miguel my 1080ti works perfectly fine in all other scenarios, I can even set core voltage and power limits to their max, increase core and memory speeds on stress tests but can I do that with P3D? No it throws it's toys out of the pram and crashes. Like I've said 100s times it even crashes with every piece of hardware on default, every piece of software on default, default SIM installation, fresh Windows etc etc. Yet the same system worked fine when I did trials with my son's 1080 which rules out an installation problem, I didn't have to reduce the GPU power limit it ran no problem at 100% and high SIM settings. Just like CPUs ALL graphics cards are different and capable of different clock speeds etc even if the same model.

Sick of this brush off about this major problem as 100s of people have these crashes. Are we all to play Russian Roulette each time we spend £700 on a new GPU hoping it won't crash the SIM? For all the size of the market I recon that's why LM refuse to even acknowledge why the SIM is crashing. 

Chris

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4 hours ago, cj-ibbotson said:

For all the size of the market I recon that's why LM refuse to even acknowledge why the SIM is crashing. 

Like me, they know it was not caused by P3D so why should they respond?  Is LM the place where one goes to fix unresolved crashes across the Internet that were caused by Microsoft, Nvidia, the company that build the MB, the person who developed the BIOS for the MB, and/or the tweaking software developed by someone to tweak the GPU?  They are only interested in their software.  I have seen this a lot.  A person gets an StackHash/ntdll.dll crash while flying the PMDG747 and goes to PMDG and asks them to fix it.  It has nothing to do with PMDG but most likely the overclocking of his hardware, corrupted drivers, or outdated hardware drivers for his hardware which PMDG has absolutely no control over.  This is why I started the CTD Forum and developed the AVSIM CTD Guide.  One has to investigate the cause of the crash.  There are just too many differences in computer systems, game setups, and Windows installations.  Very rarely is there a crash caused directly by the flight simulation application.  It is almost always something external like an anti-virus program, corrupted drivers, out of date hardware drivers, or an incompatible add-on.  Probably the closest anyone can come to blaming the flight simulation application like P3D is the fact the application uses a lot of cpu and memory resources and the application and hardware have to be be perfectly installed and set up.  I'm sorry you cannot use a GPU tweaker to gain more performance from your very expensive GPU but you cannot.

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55 minutes ago, Jim Young said:

Like me, they know it was not caused by P3D so why should they respond?  Is LM the place where one goes to fix unresolved crashes across the Internet that were caused by Microsoft, Nvidia, the company that build the MB, the person who developed the BIOS for the MB, and/or the tweaking software developed by someone to tweak the GPU?  They are only interested in their software.  I have seen this a lot.  A person gets an StackHash/ntdll.dll crash while flying the PMDG747 and goes to PMDG and asks them to fix it.  It has nothing to do with PMDG but most likely the overclocking of his hardware, corrupted drivers, or outdated hardware drivers for his hardware which PMDG has absolutely no control over.  This is why I started the CTD Forum and developed the AVSIM CTD Guide.  One has to investigate the cause of the crash.  There are just too many differences in computer systems, game setups, and Windows installations.  Very rarely is there a crash caused directly by the flight simulation application.  It is almost always something external like an anti-virus program, corrupted drivers, out of date hardware drivers, or an incompatible add-on.  Probably the closest anyone can come to blaming the flight simulation application like P3D is the fact the application uses a lot of cpu and memory resources and the application and hardware have to be be perfectly installed and set up.  I'm sorry you cannot use a GPU tweaker to gain more performance from your very expensive GPU but you cannot.

This is just going round in circles and getting a little silly now.  Of course LM are not responsible for random crashes by Microsoft, nVidia etc but you are forgetting it is THEIR software that IS crashing, Photoshop and Autocad run fine on my system and they use a lot of resources, no other program, games or applications crash.  You also keep mentioning generic reasons for crashes about drivers, anti-virus or add-ons etc so how do you explain a brand new installation of Windows 10 (latest build), fully up to date, latest hardware drivers installed from the Asus (also did test OS installs letting Windows install drivers), no add ons, bare sim, default settings, default cpu clock speeds, up to date BIOS, default gpu settings still cause a DXGI crash?  Lockheed Martin's debugging guides insists you do all that yet they refused to even comment. Whilst it may not specifically be the sim itself *causing* the crash its the sim that *is* crashing.  Something within the ancient ESP code simply does not work well with certain modern hardware, yes many experience no issues but many are and no one wants to admit it.  

Given that I simply swapped my 1080ti with a 1080, same system, same OS environment, same hardware drivers, same Prepar3D installation yet it worked on default gpu clock speeds could suggest a hardware failure in my 1080ti or it could indicate Prepar3D simply cannot cope with some small thing my card is doing.  If 100s of users experience this what ratio of P3D customers does that make..1%?  I seriously doubt each and everyone owns a 'faulty' graphics card. 

I am unsure why you speak of saying I cannot use a gpu tweaker to gain performance of my expensive gpu, I have not used it for such with P3D I had meant I have done this to stress test on other demanding games or FutureMark benchmark tests without issue to ensure my card works fine.  I have to use Afterburner to REDUCE the Power Limit to 75% or I get these crashes.  I cannot run my 1080ti on Default with the sim.  I also ran my sons 1080 on default clock speeds to test and had meant I ramped up all the P3D settings to the max to stress it and whilst performance went down it didnt crash.  All this means is that the sim and my 1080ti simply are not compatible, Windows 10, its updates or GPU drivers are not the cause otherwise it would have crashed using either card as they didnt change.  

I have never in my life seen a program which is so fickle and I sometimes wonder why I waste so much time with it.  No other game or program requires forums so huge like Avsim for peoples problems and not forgetting the many many other forums out there - surely that is a hint about the lack of stability as a whole flight simulators are.

Anyway time for me to go do some work.

Chris

Edited by cj-ibbotson

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1 hour ago, cj-ibbotson said:

but you are forgetting it is THEIR software that IS crashing

I explained that about with my comments that FS software the the hundreds of addons use a lot of resources, mainly the memory and CPU.  In any crash report or event viewer, it will tell you P3D crashed but it will not tell you P3D caused the crash.  They sometimes show a faulting module which provides only a clue and mostly, the faulting module is a system file, not anything to do with P3D or the addons.  P3D and the addons just happened to be running when the crash occurred.  To be sure, there is a slight possibility P3D caused the crash because we have seen where incompatible scenery and gauges installed in P3DV4 will cause a crash.  High settings, although rare, can cause a crash too as high settings throw even more resources on the memory and CPU.  P3D was installed with default settings which mean to me that any adjustments to the settings could cause a crash.  The settings are based on what P3D "saw" when you installed P3D in regards to hardware.  If you have a low powered system, the settings in P3D will be much lower than those who have very powerful systems.  This is what Microsoft had coded in FSX (in which P3D is based off of).  They wanted to be able to give a individual the proper settings based on their system to help them avoid issues with performance.  Whether this is still a factor in P3DV4 is unknown to me but I have a super powerful system at 5GHz and I don't even try to ramp up the settings.  I still get extremely crisp and clear images and I enjoy my flights.  They are more fun when you let your system "breathe" and not be tied up with providing a lot of resources.  I know you expect to be able to install P3DV4 and simply move all of your sliders to the max and expect no issues even with hundreds of add-ons.  That will never really happen in P3D for many, many years.  To be sure, you can run P3D with max sliders and a lot of addons but it will not always be enjoyable and you will probably suffer many unexplained crashes and freezes or a piece of hardware will not work properly because of the added requirements placed on it. 

If you want to prove that P3DV4 is unstable for some, you have done that and fully documented it.  But, again, if you run P3D normally, you will find it is not unstable and can run a lot of add-ons without any problems.  I know this is not what you want to hear but it be the facts.

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4 hours ago, Jim Young said:

f you want to prove that P3DV4 is unstable for some, you have done that and fully documented it.  But, again, if you run P3D normally, you will find it is not unstable and can run a lot of add-ons without any problems.  I know this is not what you want to hear but it be the facts.

Jim, 

Like myself, Chris has installed P3D on a fully virgin Windows set tup. I have formatted my disk(s), installed fresh version of Windows 10 and the problem persists, although less frequent than Chris as it appears, but definitely mostly during dusk/night.

It is true that P3D is capable of running a lot of add-ons without any problems, but it is also true that with plenty of add-ons things can go wrong - plenty of these on the web. What is more unusual is a virgin, default, copy showing instability for some. Whilst for some the common remedies are enough and justifiable on the basis of hardware or add-on causing instability, the case here is a completely different one - there are no possible interactions other than the P3D platform itself and the GPU.

Chris repeatedly mentioned his P3D is running on a recent/freshly installed Windows 10 OS; GPU is NOT tweaked and no other add-on installed on P3D. All very default.

 

@Chris, you mentioned you have tested with another 1080 card. Was it a one off test? I don't get the DXGI error on every flight. It is pretty random. Perhaps if you have flown longer with the 1080 card the problem would replicate...?

Edited by Miguel737NG

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9 hours ago, Jim Young said:

I explained that about with my comments that FS software the the hundreds of addons use a lot of resources, mainly the memory and CPU.  In any crash report or event viewer, it will tell you P3D crashed but it will not tell you P3D caused the crash.  They sometimes show a faulting module which provides only a clue and mostly, the faulting module is a system file, not anything to do with P3D or the addons.  P3D and the addons just happened to be running when the crash occurred.

Jim, please stop for a second. I tried mentioning this in the last page and you accused me of being untruthful and saying I knew that what I was saying was not correct. I write FS software add-ons and I've had them crash my simulator more than a few times - I know how this works. (And with respect, I would never accuse you of deliberately stating something you knew to be incorrect, but if I did I expect you would ban me post-haste. Please extend to me the same courtesy.)

First, if Prepar3D.exe (or FSX.exe) is terminated by Windows then the fault was either the executable or a DLL it loaded. End of story, no ifs, ands or buts. Is this code written by MS or LM? Not necessarily in the case of a DLL but it is certainly that process. Windows does NOT terminate a random process if it gets an error, it terminates the process that caused said error. It's the same with Linux and MacOS. This is Operating Systems 101.

Second, you stated earlier in this thread that it couldn't be an LM bug since everyone would encounter it. That's not correct either - many bugs need a specific combination of system, hardware, OS, and data to be triggered. L-M has fixed many bugs that I personally have never encountered (nor have a majority of P3D users) but that doesn't make them "not a bug in P3D". My software has had bugs triggered by specific simulator, OS and aircraft combos and many users never encountered them. That's what made them so hard to track down.

I've personally never encountered this issue, but given that the user reports indicate it only happens with P3D and it occurs with stock systems and configurations strongly suggests it's something in P3D's core DirectX/Graphics code, but it's very sensitive to hardware and/or OS. I have a lot of sympathy for L-M is this is doubtless very difficult to track down, but that doesn't make it any less their problem.

It's easy to blame the user's configuration - but to piggyback on another thread here there are plenty of times where it really is a software bug, just very, very obscure. I've had a bug where a .NET assembly depended on a specific MS Visual C++ runtime but the error message was rare and cryptic. Not too long ago FSDreamTeam broke GSX by inadvertently including a Windows API call that didn't exist prior to Windows 8 but spent a few days blaming anti-virus packages. They are hard, obscure bugs, but they remain bugs.

You have said in the past that you are defensive of L-M because you appreciate what they have done to move the Microsoft-based franchise forward. I too appreciate what they have done - most of us that have FSX (or FS9) still installed will fire it up from time to time and it is light years behind what P3Dv3 or P3Dv4 bring to the table. We are in L-M's debt, but we do them no favors when we improperly dismiss legitimate or plausible flaws in their software. The most trustworthy ally is one who is honest, not a sycophant or a cheerleader.

You and I disagree so much because I am a professional software author, in both the FS world as well as externally. I've lived and breathed this for over 30 years. My .NET apps have been used by thousands of people in millions of simulated flights. What I've done professionally has been used by more people than FS itself. I greatly respect your efforts in helping people here, but on certain core areas of software design your understanding of the way Windows apps work is incorrect and it does AVSIM's audience a disservice.

There's something here. The right approach (for everyone, not just you Jim) is to see if we can find the commonality between the cases to track it down. It's likely a bug in P3D or the NV drivers (less likely, unless there's a NV-provided P3D profile in them). Either way you will need L-M to get this fixed.

Cheers!

 

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