Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sticky

The State of Flight Simming

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Sticky said:

I know this subject has been discussed a few times, but I'm curious if opinions have changed with FSW being discontinued. 

Is the cost to develop a flight sim becoming to high for our community?  Is our community aging and shrinking?  Are there enough new people interested? Will another home PC flight simulation developer quit in the near future? Basically, is our hobby doomed in the long run?

I'm not trying to sound like chicken little, but I think FSW ending is a significant indicator. 

I dont think so, Laminar and LM are way different in "modus operandi" comparing to Dovetail Games.

The market is still growing for both P3D and X-plane, and i think the future is very good for flight simming...we cant forget that FSW appeared 1 month before P3D v4 and XP 11 as a new product with a very hard task to compete with those 2 giants that had a lot of followers already, i would say that FSW was doomed from the start!


Marques

Ryzen 7 7700x@5.4Ghz | Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360| RTX 4070 ti | 32GB Ram @5600MHZ| Crucial MX 200 M.2 500GB |Crucial MX200 SATA 500GB | HTC Vive | XIAOMI 43" 4k TV | Acer Predator 27" G-Sync | AOC 32" Freesync

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, n4gix said:

but quite frankly we "casual simmers" represent at most the cranberry sauce at a lavish Thanksgiving dinner!

I’ve often thought that LM regarded us as paying beta testers. I assumed their commercial and professional customers were paying more and expecting more so they would use as to find the glaring bugs before releasing to the demanding high dollar customers. Just an assumption on my part.

Regarding ATC, if LM wanted to develop some ATC training software, who better to start off with us until the product is polished enough to release to the more critical professionals?

My only concern is that a day comes when LM decides P3D is so good they don’t need us anymore and raises the price exponentially.

Ted


3770k@4.5 ghz, Noctua C12P CPU air cooler, Asus Z77, 2 x 4gb DDR3 Corsair 2200 mhz cl 9, EVGA 1080ti, Sony 55" 900E TV 3840 x 2160, Windows 7-64, FSX, P3dv3, P3dv4

Share this post


Link to post

My transition to P3D over FSW was driven by two factors, first one was all my ORBX scenery was ready to use with P3D, the other was I mostly use the PMDG NGX. With those two missing links FSW was never going to be an option for me. I did want to support them but I wasn't going to use a sim that wasn't supported by key developers. I am grateful to have P3D for that. Hopefully now DTG can better support their Train Sims instead

Edited by Matthew Kane

Matthew Kane

 

Share this post


Link to post

I am sure that if P3D were to open up their market to the general simmer they would probably make a killing.  

However I still feel that it is like closed shop, and those that are in want to keep the others out.  

Just as a matter of interest how would LM know if you were a Company/Student if you tried to buy it.

 

Chandyrauf

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Chandyrauf said:

Just as a matter of interest how would LM know if you were a Company/Student if you tried to buy it.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I just heard about FSW closing down and have read all of the comments so far regarding that and flight-simming in general.  I have had two main thoughts for a long time about the flight-sim situation.  These are:  (1) I think one big thing that has hurt flight-simming, at least in the earlier stages maybe not as much in the last few years, is that when a person bought a sim they couldn't/can't get it to really run properly without jumping through all sorts of hoops and almost being a computer programmer to get things right.  It's very frustrating to buy a sim or aircraft and have basic things like switches operating backwords, avionics that don't quite work correctly (and the user sometimes spends many hours thinking it is their fault when the problem is really in the programming), and basic sim functions such as ground handling,etc. given little attention.  I always invisioned  a grandma thinking it would be a good idea to buy Johnny a flightsim (assuming Johnny is not 6 yrs. old) and when he tries to fly it he gets a max of 10 FPS (especially in MSFS days) and other thing don't work.  Unless, he is really into messing with computers AND is aware of where to go for help he's just going to give up and say the program was a piece of junk.  And, so there goes another potential hobbyist.

AND (2) Certainly not all, but it seems like a lot of simmers are very tight-fisted when it comes to the money aspect of this hobby.  They want more and more accuracy, features, cosmetics, and constant free upgrades, but if they have to spend $5 more they complain.  Damn, it costs MONEY to develop this stuff, certainly to the level that most seem to want.  Word processors cost more than we pay for a flightsim and I'm guessing that they don't take any more effort/expense to develop (at least at this stage of the game) than a top-level flightsim.   Like most people, I'm not eager to spend money, but people need to realize what it takes to reach a certain level of sophistication that is being desired.  I've often said that it's too bad everyone can't be required to own/run a business for at least 6 months to see what it's all about and it would probably stop a lot of the unfounded complaining.

Maybe the number of active simmers is holding its own right now and is enough to support at least two platforms, according to what some people are saying, but I can't help believe it's not what it used to be or could be.

Jeff Smith

Edited by JNS
  • Like 2

Jeff Smith

 

System: i9-9900K@5.0GHz., ASUS Maximus XI Hero MB, 32 GB 3200 Hyper-X RAM, Corsair HX1000i PSU, Cooler Master ML360R RGB, EVGA RTX 3080Ti FTW3, (2) Samsung 860 500GB SSD for Windows 10 Pro and sim, (2) M.2 NVMe 2TB, (2) WD Black 4TB HD for data, Samsung 65" 4K curved monitor @ 30Hz. (Currently running VSync, TB , Unlimited),YOKO+ yoke, VF TQ6+,TPR pedals, Logitech Multi, Switch, and Radio Panels

Software:  P3Dv4.5HF3 Pro, Ultimate Traffic Live, ASP3D, ASCA, ORBX, Fly Tampa, GSX/GSX2, PMDG, A2A, Just Flight, Milviz, Carenado, Majestic.

On other computer: P3D v3.2.3, My Traffic 6.0a, PMDG, ORBX, A2A, Captain Sim , iFly, Flight 1, Flysimware, Just Flight, Milviz, Carenado

Share this post


Link to post

 I thought about this topic today and went back and did some searching from the 1990's up to 2005 and than we had Microprose and Origin and Microsoft. The flight simulations were many and very good. Our times changed with 9/11 and how the public viewed flight sims in my opinion. My last flight sim conference I went to was Avsim in Denver 2004 and it was great. I went online and found a lot of those games and they will run on newer systems with Dosbox.  I hope that the flight sim community keeps getting stronger.

 

JeffG


Jeffrey Gerbert

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, JNS said:

Maybe the number of active simmers is holding its own right now and is enough to support at least two platforms, according to what some people are saying, but I can't help believe it's not what it used to be or could be.

If you base you trust on Forums and get your news from CNN,CBS,NBCand ABC then you are pretty much going to worry that #1 Flight Simming in coming to an end and......

#2 It does not matter...The world is coming to an end.

Think about it....If Flight Simming is a "dying" market then why would someone like DTG borrow or invest vast amounts of money in this project. They have been suspected of not being the sharpest knife in the kitchen but they must have seen a chance to pick up a lot of nickles and dimes from someone.


Sam

Prepar3D V5.3/12700K@5.1/EVGA 3080 TI/1000W PSU/Windows 10/40" 4K Samsung@3840x2160/ASP3D/ASCA/ORBX/
ChasePlane/General Aviation/Honeycomb Alpha+Bravo/MFG Rudder Pedals/

Share this post


Link to post

I don't know if the flightsim community is aging and shrinking, but I hope it isn't.  The commercial vendors would be the ones to ask about this as they can tell by their sales how well things are going, and I'm talking here about the big ones like Lockheed Martin, Xplane, PMDG, ORBX, Aerosoft, etc.

All I know is that the core FSX platform is still pretty darn good and really just needs updating and improving.  Yes, it would be nice to have a brand new simulator platform with all the latest tech and bells and whistles, but that takes a lot of time and money to develop.

At least in the medium term the future of flight simulation looks pretty good.  In the case of scenery, for example, just look at what ORBX is working on with their TrueEarth offerings - pretty nice I'd say.  Also looking forward to PMDG's announcement as whatever it is it's bound to be good.

Dave


Simulator: P3Dv5.4

System Specs: Intel i7 13700K CPU, MSI Mag Z790 Tomahawk Motherboard, 32GB DDR5 6000MHz RAM, Nvidia GeForce RTX 4070 Video Card, 3x 1TB Samsung 980 Pro M.2 2280 SSDs, Windows 11 Home OS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Guest

I feel flight simulation is more healthy today that it was in 2005. However, we have a few factors involved:

1.  The adoption of console games and 3D shooters and "why can't my flight simulator look that good"?  Answer is it can look that good IF you have 1 PT (not TB but PT) of SSD or better disk space available, a few high end GPUs, OC'd CPUs, and supporting networked PCs.  Console = $300, Flight simulator PC $1500 minimum on upwards of $20,000+ ... cost to "simulate" is considerably higher than the cost to "play".

2.  Hardware limits, technology has advanced considerably since 2005, but hardware capacity and performance is still not there yet and high end GPUs are considerably more expensive today ($3000) than in 2005 ($500).

3.  The "draw" to complexity and reading manuals and figuring out how stuff works seems to have diminished over the years where instant gratification appears to have gained in desire/popularity (not judging anyone, just stating what I've observed over the decades).  

Personally I see a huge positive momentum in "simulation" with many more titles being released today than ever before ... titles that cover a wide range from purpose driven such as AirHauler or FSPassenger to the incredible complexity of FSLabs A320 and many companies have provided future road maps of their planned products ... these are all healthy signs.  Now that the memory limits are no more (more accurately tied to how much RAM and/or VRAM one has installed) the possibilities are endless?  Maybe add a train/bus/car simulator add-on that can interact with the FS world ... just think, explore the $1000 worth of scenery one has purchased from ground level rather than 30,000 ft below a hazing layer where one can't really see it during most of one's flight?  Can't tell you how many high quality airports I haven't fully explored yet and all I've done is just fly in/out (runway, taxi, gate) and nothing else ... I'm missing 60% of what I paid for.  Products are being released and updated so fast that I honestly have a hard time keeping up.

I recall one user/member comment from some time ago saying "the entire world isn't loaded in a flight simulator", actually the entire world IS loaded in a flight simulator ... it has to be as you can't just stop flight and wait 30-60 seconds (usually covered with render fixed/non-interactive animated sequence) for the "next level" to load like what we see in 3D shooters.  This is why the graphics quality has to be reduced in order to manage such huge amount of texture and object data with the implementation of a LOD radius to manage detail.

IMHO, Flight Simulators are light years ahead of any 3D shooter in what they can do and accomplish with their flexibility ... if not sure, surf thru their respective SDK/PDK's and be astonished at the flexibility.  What P3D and XP11 offer is a core for which to expand on and build an ecosystem.  From a developer's perspective, I completely agree, ONE platform would be desirable because that means a developer doesn't have to figure out how each platforms works in order to provide content.  Somewhat anti-competitive, but when the overall market is small (for reasons #1-3 above) "relative" to 3D shooter A titles, combination of resources can make for the best end user experience.

Re-writing from ground up is not needed, and would be costly and very time consuming and most likely many of the same design decisions.  Best way forward is careful, methodical, and planned changes to existing platforms to leverage new hardware, new graphics API, new CPUs ... this is happening, slowly, but at least the ball is rolling.

Cheers, Rob. 

  

Share this post


Link to post

I appreciate the discussion.  My two cents are a mixture of all the opinions express above basically...except for I seem to have a deeper sense of negativity.  I think our community of serious simmers, who want the stars and the moon, cannot support the development of a sim that satisfies our needs.  I see us tinkering with virtually stagnate FSX/P3D and the slow growing XPLANE for the next 10 years.  Maybe thats ok for many of us, but I call it a decline from the growth days of 1985 to 2010.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, n4gix said:

Generally speaking the costs of development for the plethora of extant sim versions has been going up for the past few years, so I for one am not all that sorrowful to see one of the contenders for my attention fall by the wayside. It simply means I can spend more time on the surviving platforms... :biggrin:

Other contenders? Have you ever made something for a non-esp sim? Watching the various developers I have gotten the impression that once esp: especially for several years, almost always esp.

  • Like 1

We are all connected..... To each other, biologically...... To the Earth, chemically...... To the rest of the Universe atomically.
 
Devons rig
Intel Core i5 13600K @ 5.1GHz / G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series Ram 32GB / GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti GAMING OC 12G Graphics Card / Sound Blaster Z / Meta Quest 2 VR Headset / Klipsch® Promedia 2.1 Computer Speakers / ASUS ROG SWIFT PG279Q ‑ 27" IPS LED Monitor ‑ QHD / 1x Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB / 2x Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB /  1x Samsung - 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe /  1x Samsung 980 NVMe 1TB / 2 other regular hd's with up to 10 terabyte capacity / Windows 11 Pro 64-bit / Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX Motherboard LGA 1700 DDR5

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Chandyrauf said:

Just as a matter of interest how would LM know if you were a Company/Student if you tried to buy it.

Check your PM's.


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556


     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, HiFlyer said:

Other contenders? Have you ever made something for a non-esp sim? Watching the various developers I have gotten the impression that once esp: especially for several years, almost always esp.

Actually, no I have not. However that said, FSX/A is not precisely the same as FSX:SE and not precisely the same as P3Dv2, v3, or v4. Each of them do have enough differences to require special attention because slightly different techniques are often required when designing a product that will install and work in each sim version.


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556


     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

Share this post


Link to post

So here’s my take on the state of sims. As a real world pilot I enjoy our choices of flight sims. Personally I liked the general direction dtg was going but I’m not crying they ended it.

I flew the pmdg 737 in p3d the other day and the next day I flew the zibo mod 737 in x-plane 11 for my return. Both wonderful experiences but what hit me was that I felt p3d was nostalgic. Maybe it’s because I use x-plane 11 more or maybe that on this day, in 2018, p3d still feels like fsx and to me, it’s outdated and run down. No matter how many addons I have on there. 

 

Its time for a new engine, I don’t see myself buying another ESP product. I was actually going to hold off on p3d v4 but a lot of close friends hyped it and honestly it was just the same for me. Same old fsx.  Still enjoyable but I’m ready for a fresh new look, I have my opinions on what should be included in the sim and it’s not the most popular so I keep it to myself but we are still in exciting times. 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
×
×
  • Create New...