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Bobsk8

Farewell FSW

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3 hours ago, Paraffin said:

There may be another way to parse what Froogle said about zero experience.

Whether there were experienced FS programmers in the development team or not, I think he was saying that the DTG management was not experienced with flight sims. And they weren't. It was obvious from day one.

It takes a certain perspective and drive from the top, to create a successful flight sim. Bruce Artwick was an aviation enthusiast before creating SubLogic and the original FS. I think he had a pilot's license, didn't he? Austin Meyer created X-Plane and continues to push it forward, due to his interest in aviation as a GA pilot. Presumably, the top management for P3D has a strong interest in aviation related to Lockheed-Martin's long and illustrious history. I don't know the background of the folks behind AFS2, but it feels to me like a product created by someone with a deep interest in aviation and flight simulation.

At DTG you had people making train sims. They licensed the Steam distribution for FSX as basically a retail shop marketer. If I remember the history right (correct me if I'm wrong), the lead developer for the "new" DTG flight sim started learning about aviation after the Flight School and FSW products were announced. Cart before the horse. 

I think that's what Froogle might have been alluding to, with the comments about a business focus being paramount for DTG. 

 

Exactly. DTG knew nothing about flight sims, their expertise was in Trains and fishing. It was doomed from the start. 


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49 minutes ago, Boomer said:

60 % or not?

0%, 30% or 60% depending on the channel through which the addon is bought as I understand it.

Edited by AndyUK

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6 hours ago, A32xx said:

Hopefully so. And this motormouth "Froogle" sounds like a character from the Muppet Show, why anyone listens to these self-proclaimed "experts" is a mystery to me.

If you are so knowledgeable about simming, why don't you make a video or two so we can see what you have to offer. I have a feeling it will be a very long wait. 

Edited by Bobsk8
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1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

Exactly. DTG knew nothing about flight sims, their expertise was in Trains and fishing. It was doomed from the start. 

You could say the same thing about Microsoft (apart from the trains and fishing) when they bought the rights to Flight Simulator from subLOGIC. Just as with Microsoft, DTG used experienced programmers who had helped develop the original sim. The main difference was that Microsoft had Bill Gates.

Edited by vortex681
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7 hours ago, A32xx said:

Hopefully so. And this motormouth "Froogle" sounds like a character from the Muppet Show, why anyone listens to these self-proclaimed "experts" is a mystery to me.

Tim,

Froogle has proven over years that what he has to say carries more weight than most that say nothing. I give credit where credit is due.

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22 minutes ago, DJJose said:

Tim,

Froogle has proven over years that what he has to say carries more weight than most that say nothing. I give credit where credit is due.

But just because you have a big following and your comments carry more weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're correct.

I don't know how much truth there is in the comment but someone on another site posted that Pete Wright (Froogle) was involved with the "consortium of well regarded developers" who lost the franchise. It would be interesting to know if that's true. If so, it might explain some of his animosity against DTG.

Edited by vortex681

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32 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

But just because you have a big following and your comments carry more weight, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're correct.

I don't know how much truth there is in the comment but someone on another site posted that Pete Wright (Froogle) was involved with the "consortium of well regarded developers" who lost the franchise. It would be interesting to know if that's true. If so, it might explain some of his animosity against DTG.

You have proof of that or are you just spreading rumors?


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2 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

You have proof of that or are you just spreading rumors?

It's from here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/110345-Frooglesim-News?p=1137647&viewfull=1#post1137647

As I said above, I've no idea how much truth there is in the original comment.


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10 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

It's from here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/110345-Frooglesim-News?p=1137647&viewfull=1#post1137647

As I said above, I've no idea how much truth there is in the original comment.

Just someone's opinion, and we all know how accurate those opinions are. 


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Just now, Bobsk8 said:

Just someone's opinion, and we all know how accurate those opinions are. 

This forum is full of opinions! Who's to say which of them are correct? If we needed absolute proof before posting a comment/opinion the whole site would be much quieter. The original comment that I responded to: "Froogle has proven over years that what he has to say carries more weight than most that say nothing" is just someone's opinion and also lacks definitive proof.


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4 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

their expertise was in Trains

That's debatable Bob, currently, a lot of train simmers are heading to 3DTS train sim "Run 8: V2.  Simmers have mostly had a gutsfull of word not allowed physics, and bugs that are never adressed. The market share is shifting, and I can see DTG's TSW with the unreal engine going the same way as FSW.

Edited by ZKOKQ

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15 minutes ago, ZKOKQ said:

That's debatable Bob, currently, a lot of train simmers are heading to 3DTS train sim "Run 8: V2.  Simmers have mostly had a gutsfull of word not allowed physics, and bugs that are never adressed. The market share is shifting, and I can see DTG's TSW with the unreal engine going the same way as FSW.

I own Run 8 and am very familiar with train sims, having owned all of them at one time or another. . My point is, that DTG had no expertise at all in flight sims, and people that thought they would create a good flight  sim, were sadly mistaken. DTG's business model is to sell DLC that is about 80% finished, and when you complain about it not working correctly, they try and sell you something else that is 80% finished. Their development team never works on the broken DLC they just sold, trying to fix it, they are working on the next product that they will sucker you into buying.   Flight simmers would never put up with that, and when they realized that this was their new reality, they bailed out. DTG is a good company to stay away from. 

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1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

I own Run 8 and am very familiar with train sims, having owned all of them at one time or another. . My point is, that DTG had no expertise at all in flight sims, and people that thought they would create a good flight  sim, were sadly mistaken. DTG's business model is to sell DLC that is about 80% finished, and when you complain about it not working correctly, they try and sell you something else that is 80% finished. Their development team never works on the broken DLC they just sold, trying to fix it, they are working on the next product that they will sucker you into buying.   Flight simmers would never put up with that, and when they realized that this was their new reality, they bailed out. DTG is a good company to stay away from. 

Spot on.Could not agree more.


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Re ‘Froogle’ - to be fair Pete has been a highly regarded commentator and inspiration to the flight sim community. Back in 2016 he hosted Flightsimcon and had a speaker slot. This was the marketing at the time:

“The speaker list features some of the biggest names in the flight simulation world, including Peter "Frooglesim" Wright, Austin Meyer...”

Since then he has been a lot quieter because he has been involved in a start up business which I don’t think is anything to do with flightsim. 

He made a lot of very helpful videos for newbies and experienced simmers in the past. 

He also supported a charitable organisation for underprivileged  kids in Florida where he lives. It gave them the opportunity to fly and use flightsim equipment. It was also used to help them learn technical stuff (e.g. Maths) in an interesting format. I donated my Saitek gear to them as it seemed very worthwhile. 

So I do have respect for him although I was a little disappointed in the way he tackled some of issues in the vlog

cheers

Peter

Edited by CaptCWGAllen
Typos

Peter Allen

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Hi all,

Most interesting reading all the postings so far.

Well, I'm not a developer, just a simple, maybe typical user of sims. I've been simming since FS2000, (that came on a couple of stiffy disks, if my memory serves me), & like everybody else here, I'm always on the lookout for something new. Oh, I'm part of a volunteer team that look after & mentor 'The Young Falcons', 60 kids, 30 juniors & 30 seniors, every 2 weeks for 2 years. We lecture them & then do practical lessons on PC's, so we are always on the lookout for something new to benefit the kids.

So I came across Flight School. I asked myself as to how it would benefit me. Well, it obviously would not. My impression was that this was for the first time user, so it could/should have been perfect for the 'Young Falcons'. Meh! We decided that we had all of that content in the 'Lessons'  within our existing FS2004 that we had on our PC's for the kids.

During this time, as a long time simmer, I had my doubts about DTG,  probably the largest game distributor around, specialising in fishing & train sims, getting involved with flight simming. So, Flight School crashed & burnt, but I/we still looked at FSW, & decided that, for various reasons, including available content, it is of no benefit to me & my fellow simmers of our virtual club. It was also very confusing as to who DTG's target market is/was. Serious simmers, casual simmers, DTG's existing gamers or newbi's.

It was also interesting that DTG looked at the sim fraternity for input & advice, & we obviously know that our community is extremely diverse especially with their opinions. It almost felt that DTG was crowd sourcing their ideas.

So, FSW was, in our opinion, an unfinished beta version, (yes, DTG decided to call it a release candidate later), with a couple of GA planes, & no scenery for our flying area. We obviously decided that this is not for us, being so limited.

So, what went wrong? DTG tried to be everything to everybody.. We know that does not work. They should have narrowed their market. Maybe developers should have stayed away until DTG had a mature sim. They made business decisions that they thought were good at the time. So, not having the numbers they shut their flight sim division down. A very correct decision. They did not need our permission to do this, as they are responsible to their shareholders, not us, not to any developers.

There are far too many 'sim 'oracles' out there, that have huge followings,  that are so quick to criticize. Guys, it's just a game, using a gaming engine, from a gaming studio, marketed by probably one of the largest gaming company's around, distributed by the largest gaming distributor. No more, no less, no matter how much lipstick you put on it.

In any case, our market was becoming very fragmented. I'm sure that our developers also cannot be everything to us, as we use FSX, FSX;SE, P3D & X-Plane, amongst others. I'm sure there are large cost implications as more sims come on line & the developers need to choose where & what to develop.

It does seem that we are stuck with the majority of sims (for entertainment) are based on the FSX engine & I'm sure that if any new sim that comes out, not based on FSX, it will have to be highly competitive as far as cost & add-ons. Can our (relatively) small market cope with something so new, without backward compatibilty?

Anyhow..after 24 pages of reading about a game being withdrawn...🙄

 

 


Robin


"Onward & Upward" ...
To the Stars, & Beyond... 

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