[25APR18] New Product Reveal at FlightSim Expo'18 - Las Vegas 09JUN18

[Roodey14 0]

I'm very excited about the product! Everything to make it as real as possible is great. But how does the program handle for example ultimate Traffic live for the gate assignment? Or an atc addon? Or FS2crew? It's weird if i get assigned gate B23 and there is already another (ai) plane. 

[Stavros 295]

3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

...so...

Golden Rule it. Not for me, but for the next user, because I can nearly guarantee that none of you want to be the next person in line after someone thought they were sticking it to PMDG, when in fact, they were just ruining the day of the next person in line.

 

I think you're preaching to the choir here, I suspect no one reading this thread intends on griefing. That said, I think the people who would be interested in griefing understand that it's not sticking it to you guys but the next person; they're doing it with the full intent to ruin the day of the next person who uses the plane. This happens in every online game, and I think it's a tad naive to think it won't happen here.

Really though, my concern isn't with the obvious griefing: that can be dealt with rather easily. Instead, it's with abuse of the rating system itself, as well as with distinguishing "noob-ish" behavior from actual malice. I understand you might think differently, but keeping quiet about the methods you're taking to prevent this kind of behavior may be counterproductive: those with the intent to grief will find a way. Addressing the methods of griefing you've identified as possible issues and how you intend to address them is, I think, the more productive way to handle how this will work and keep us future customers informed.

As I said, very much looking forward to the release, and hope you guys keep up the great work!

-Steven

Edited June 12, 2018 by Steven Agre

[NoahBryant 26]

9 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

The short version? It's a way to take your simming experience and make that much more in-depth...no matter what you want to fly.

Thanks for taking the time to write - So I suppose the very first thing that jumps out at me is one of the main things that drove me nuts about the larger planes in FSE:

It's easier to land a big plane on a short runway than it is to depart and people would often take a big plane like the 737 into a tiny little airport and leave it there. So what happens then? Or someone who deliberately (or maybe not, lol) leaves the aircraft parked on a runway with one engine running, and the switches in complete disarray? 

Edit - should have read the rest...(you can disregard the above)

So the more I hear about this, the more it sounds like a framework, or back-end of the most amazing VA ever. If you were to add in the flight schedules and other VA-features, or an economic system like AH or FSE I would pay a LOT of money for something like that. Gladly pay a monthly fee. 

I'm definitely interested in trying this, and thanks for taking the time to explain better. 

I almost feel as though you could turn this into a deployable infrastructure.  For example, I own Virtual Noah Airways, and would like to use your system for tracking my planes, flights, comms etc. I could pay you to deploy this in the cloud for a monthly fee. I could then populate it ONLY with my fleet and ONLY my pilots could make use of it. 

I hope there's something like that in the back of your mind because I truly think there would be a market for it. You could revolutionize Virtual Airlines overnight. I work for an aviation company that creates similar software pieces that we then deploy to a customer's servers (or in the cloud) and they actually use it completely on their own. We're pretty hands off. All these different airlines using the same backend but in different ways that wouldn't really be apparent to pilots/pax.

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by NoahBryant

[scandinavian13 5,192]

2 hours ago, Steven Agre said:

Addressing the methods of griefing you've identified as possible issues and how you intend to address them is, I think, the more productive way to handle how this will work and keep us future customers informed.

Informed isn't always the right, or even the best interest, of the customer. We could inform you about our code methods, or the server passwords in the interest of keeping you informed. Neither would be a good idea, however. Similarly, in the interest of keeping the travelling public informed, aircraft manufacturers could provide diagrams that show how a flight deck door is secured. Again, not the best of ideas in the interest of security of those passengers who might want to know.

I understand your concern, but again, I'm going to lean back on the idea that enumerating/explaining what we've done to prevent griefing isn't in the best interest of security...nor is it in your own best interest, honestly. There are protections in place. If you're not okay with that explanation, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go into detail about how we've locked the doors, so to speak.

Moreover, if we notice something odd, it's not like we're going to knee-jerk ban someone because of that oddity. As people use the system, things will be adjusted to dial it in to how people are using (and potentially abusing) it. Again, having been here in the forum, I've seen abuse of a rating system. I'm a mod. When AVSIM allowed up AND down votes (and not just upvotes), you really think I had an amazing rating?

Guys - seriously. I get that there are worries, and that whatever issue pops into your mind is something I haven't thought about. Again, I'm multiple years ahead of all of you on this, and coming up with all of the possible ways people could grief the system (and what I missed, Xhristos exposed, as he enjoys trying to grief test our stuff internally - literally the first thing he did when I gave him access - not even kidding). Beta testing may expose a couple more corner cases.

Either way, it's my job to make sure none of your experiences is ruined by griefing. We've already put a number of protections into place. There will likely be more. Just like security systems on a house aren't painted bright orange with flashing lights, though, I'm not going to point out where all of these monitors and preventative measures exist.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

2 hours ago, NoahBryant said:

I almost feel as though you could turn this into a deployable infrastructure.  For example, I own Virtual Noah Airways, and would like to use your system for tracking my planes, flights, comms etc. I could pay you to deploy this in the cloud for a monthly fee. I could then populate it ONLY with my fleet and ONLY my pilots could make use of it. 

I hope there's something like that in the back of your mind because I truly think there would be a market for it. You could revolutionize Virtual Airlines overnight. I work for an aviation company that creates similar software pieces that we then deploy to a customer's servers (or in the cloud) and they actually use it completely on their own. We're pretty hands off. All these different airlines using the same backend but in different ways that wouldn't really be apparent to pilots/pax.

I believe we've already addressed this, but it will be on our servers. The admins will be able to manage their pilots and aircraft, but this will be done on our servers.

[JRBarrett 3,038]

One thing that will hopefully come with the advent of GFO, (and Robert touched on this in the live stream), is a massive increase in the number of unique liveries. As an example, not just 3 or 4 different BAW 744 liveries, but every current 744 tail number in the fleet.

Robert extended an invitation to painters and other content creators to partner with PMDG in bringing this about. I’m curious if this process is already underway.

[NoahBryant 26]

2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

I believe we've already addressed this, but it will be on our servers. The admins will be able to manage their pilots and aircraft, but this will be done on our servers.

Looking forward to seeing what VAs take advantage. That will definitely make me want to join a VA again. Thanks Kyle!

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

2 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

One thing that will hopefully come with the advent of GFO, (and Robert touched on this in the live stream), is a massive increase in the number of unique liveries. As an example, not just 3 or 4 different BAW 744 liveries, but every current 744 tail number in the fleet.

Robert extended an invitation to painters and other content creators to partner with PMDG in bringing this about. I’m curious if this process is already underway.

Jim,

Not just yet- but don't wander off!

 

[Captain Kevin 586]

17 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

So, in a system that gives people an opportunity to get the more realistic experience of flying in aircraft that have been flown by other people, accumulate hours on a more realistic basis because of that, and so on how is it logical to expect that we would give everyone their own personal airplane to fly around in that system? Not only does that entirely defeat the point, it makes no sense in the context of what we're providing here.

If you're not using the system, you cannot utilize the messaging of said system. You're either in, or you're out.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. I'm open to hearing an explanation of what you're requesting, and the logic behind it, but as I see it, I'm seeing a request to allow you to wall yourself off in your own world, but selectively capitalize upon the resources everyone else is sharing. Somewhat of a "have your cake and eat it too," situations.

If I read correctly, it's possible to use ACARS to get weather information and to use CPDLC to communicate with the controllers on VATSIM, which is most likely what I'd be using anyhow if this function was available. That said, the only plane I fly for the most part is my own, so you wouldn't have any information in your aircraft database about my plane anyhow. It wasn't really so much a request as much as it was a question clarifying what I was able to do with it, but by the sounds of it, I wouldn't be able to use GFO since I only fly one plane, therefore cannot use ACARS or CPDLC, either.

[MaDDogz 242]

Would a forum post from PMDG explaining GFO not like, really help right now? ......

im either missing something or its not being posted on purpose. A lot of people were disappointed ( not me btw ) and then a million questions about it arise, and whilst I’m really pleased about the xplane news, in my mind common sense dictates a explanation post is desperately needed.

please, I am open to correction, but this kind of behaviour, especially after all the controversies that has happend after the “big announcement “, just comes across as pedantic.

like I said though I am open to be corrected as I’m aware this maybe just how I feel.

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

3 hours ago, MaDDogz said:

Would a forum post from PMDG explaining GFO not like, really help right now? ......

RSR will put something official up when it's ready - it's a complex topic, so it takes a bit of time to come up with a good way of explaining it (and based on the confused and occasionally vitriolic reaction at the FlightSimExpo, we're adjusting our messaging to clear things up).

All the same, I wrote the following earlier in this thread:

23 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

Every time you load the sim, you get whatever panel state you load with - perhaps you save a continuous state each time, perhaps not - at a location you set up through a menu structure, with whatever hours you put on the plane yourself. The plane doesn't quite have the feeling any plane out there in the real world does. After all, you're simply flying a copy of a plane thousands of others potentially have a copy of. You can't do that out in the real world. If you were to go to Dulles right now, you'd find N422WN at gate B50. Once the crew takes that plane, that plane is gone. I can't magically conjure up a second copy of it and start flying it around. When it gets to ATL, any other crew picking it up will get the aircraft in the state the last crew left it in - switches, accumulated hours, position, and so on. If a switch is out of position, the next crew will have to handle that. If the last crew parked it a couple degrees off the line, the next crew will notice (though it's not a big deal, it's just the imperfection of daily life). GFO brings that kind of experience into the sim. Oh yeah, and any airliner can be used in this system. You have the TFDi 717 and want to fly that around? Go for it. While the various devs may have differing levels of integration so far, updates to existing products could further integrate them, and/or new product can be developed with GFO integration in mind.

While you're in the plane, getting set up for departure, you may think to check the weather to throw in a departure runway. Right now, you might look at your weather add-on, or perhaps pull up a web page with a METAR on a second screen, or on your phone. Either way, you usually have to break some of the feeling of realism in order to do so. Same goes for checking the current and forecast weather for your destination, and maybe an alternate or two. As you get closer to your destination, you might look at FlightAware to get a gate assignment, if it's available - again breaking the realism in order to do so - or you might just "assign" yourself one. For some people, who are into statistics and data collection, they may manually write down fuel loads they start with, and end with, along with the various times - gate departure, takeoff, landing, and gate arrival - or they may log in to VATSIM to have all that tracked by VATAWARE, or a similar site. GFO brings that into the sim in an in-depth simulation of ACARS. You can request weather data via the CDU in the sim itself, which will get the data for you either from real world sources, the sim itself, or your add-on weather program (useful when you're using historical weather). You can request gates for an ever-growing list of airports, and it will give you a proper assignment for your aircraft type, operator, and so on. All of your times are tracked online, as well, so you don't have to manually track it, or log into an online network. Given that ACARS is out there, this opens up an interface for VAs to communicate to their pilots with ops messages. CPDLC will also be available down the line, so that controllers can log in and handle those functions: clearances, route changes (route pushes), and so on. That means Cross the Pond, and similar events will be slightly less painful, and quite a lot more realistic: position reports over HF are rare now.

Less interesting for the pilots here, but this also allows for ADS-C simulations (yes, -C, and it's oddly much older than -B ) for controller clients.

The short version? It's a way to take your simming experience and make that much more in-depth...no matter what you want to fly.

 

 

[MaDDogz 242]

Thanks Kyle. 

[Benutzernamen 0]

So what is the new product?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

16 minutes ago, Benutzernamen said:

So what is the new product?

I get that this is a 35 page thread now, but this is literally two posts back:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/535584-25apr18-new-product-reveal-at-flightsim-expo18-las-vegas-09jun18/?do=findComment&comment=3860603

[Bob_Z 30]

Kyle, If you had posted that on Saturday afternoon, I bet this thread would have been half the length.  There still would have been whining, but maybe not as much.l 😊