Why didn't DTG just stop developing instead of completely removing it from Steam?

[A32xx 129]

12 hours ago, Henry Street said:

This ^^^....DTG overpaid for a license in an industry with which they had no experience. Then crapped out, destroying a potentially bright future for the product line. In the process, destroying much of the license's value trying to monetize FSW while P3D, XPlane, and DCS pulled ahead in market share.

@A32xx This is why Mathias was bitter. The Aerosoft et al consortium had a business plan for the license that had a much higher probability of success and offered a price likely much closer to the real value. 

Closer to the real value to whom? Microsoft were bound to accept the highest offer in what was, effectively, an auction. And DTG had their previous experience with FSX:SE and Flight School of course.

I doubt that the license's value has been destroyed by trying to monetize FSW, hasn't FSX been monetized already by Aerosoft? For the past decade or more they've been selling us FSX airports with the moving jetways disabled, forcing us to buy their AES Credits to get them back again. Imagine what they could do with a full flight sim instead of an individual airport!

Edited April 30, 2018 by A32xx

[Christopher Low 5,331]

DTG released FSX : Steam Edition and Flight School after they had made the deal with Microsoft. As far as I am aware, they had no prior experience in the flight simulation community.

[A32xx 129]

I stand corrected Christopher, thank you.

Meanwhile, 'money-grabbing' DTG have just announced this on the FSW Steam forum:

"We're going to be putting all of our mission pack DLC (Epic Approaches, The Last Frontier and the Spanish Job) free in the near future. 

Regarding sales on other content, we're working with the developers who created that content to see what we can sort out."

Edit to add:

"the SDK site will remain available after the closure of FSW. As will the SDK and Pro Mission Editor."

Edited April 30, 2018 by A32xx

[hs118 707]

@A32xx Tim, for the record, I am not and never have been an FSW hater. It was really shaping up to be market contender. The development team that was interfacing with the community were listening (as best they could) and communicating in a sincere way.

However...I was, am and will continue to be a Dovetail skeptic. Their record in the general simulation community is at best questioned. They made a seriously bad judgement call believing that the flightsim community would work like the Steam community. 

On top of their business judgement problem, they were competing against themselves in a head scratching way by publishing and supporting FSX-SE. (I predicted this when FlightSchool was announced). 

They brought a LOT, a seriously big LOT, of new, young people into flightsim with FSX-SE. I'm assuming they were counting on these new users are potential buyers of FSW. 

Their plan broke down because they were not able to provide a feature and addon rich upgrade for those new users because of the "Dovetail DLC way". Very few of the addon makers in our community were willing (or able, based on flightsim product margins) to give up 60% or their retail price to Dovetail/Steam. And why should they when the XPlane market is waiting in the wings (pun intended). 

Anyway, DTG blew up FSW because they were not recouping their investment fast enough for them. They DID NOT understand the long term market cycle in this community. Mathias pointed this out. Froogle's "money, money, money" perspective is a little oversimplified but accurate. 

Again, sorry if you get the impression I was an FSW hater, I was and am not. Shame to see it fall by the wayside with MS Flight (and for very similar reasons).

Edited April 30, 2018 by Henry Street

[David Vega 348]

It's amazing how we keep repeating what other high influence folks are saying.  There's nothing wrong with DTG outbidding the famous "consortium."  It's business competition.  Microsoft sold to the highest bidder.  It was about business (money) not about which competitor had more flight simulation development experience.  If DTG is "money grabbing" then so is also Microsoft.  How many in this community asked some influential developers to continue developing/selling their add-ons for FS9?  Do you recall the developers' response?  The numbers are not there to justify development cost.  Does this make them "money grabbers?"  These are business decisions that unfortunately don't play out the way we would like to, but it's just that, business.  

We're in mourning about FSW.  Let's be careful about how we're influenced, but let's move on.  

[hs118 707]

7 minutes ago, SAX702 said:

It's amazing how we keep repeating what other high influence folks are saying.  There's nothing wrong with DTG outbidding the famous "consortium."  It's business competition.  Microsoft sold to the highest bidder.  It was about business (money) not about which competitor had more flight simulation development experience.  If DTG is "money grabbing" then so is also Microsoft.  How many in this community asked some influential developers to continue developing/selling their add-ons for FS9?  Do you recall the developers' response?  The numbers are not there to justify development cost.  Does this make them "money grabbers?"  These are business decisions that unfortunately don't play out the way we would like to, but it's just that, business.  

We're in mourning about FSW.  Let's be careful about how we're influenced, but let's move on.  

In your terms, I will repeat, Dovetail games make a seriously bad business judgement. They did not understand the marketplace and over played their hand. Sorry for FSW.

[A32xx 129]

9 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

In your terms, I will repeat, Dovetail games make a seriously bad business judgement. They did not understand the marketplace and over played their hand. Sorry for FSW.

I agree Henry. I think 30% was probably too high a percentage for a new sim, and that DTG should have sold FSW themselves via the established flight sim publishers before putting it on Steam, as LR have done with X-Plane.

[ZKOKQ 984]

10 hours ago, A32xx said:

I agree Henry. I think 30% was probably too high a percentage for a new sim, and that DTG should have sold FSW themselves via the established flight sim publishers before putting it on Steam, as LR have done with X-Plane.

TSW could go the same way as FSW. The have crapped on too many people. False promises and eye candy with not much else. The rail sim franchise has only be saved as people flock to 3DTS Run 8 Simulator, as they don't subscribe to the model of Early access, and with realistic train physics and a great dispatcher system, DTG must be very worried, if not, they should be.

[SamYeager 244]

@ZKOKQ - Not to put too fine a point upon it but your post has nothing to do with flight simulation or FSW and is com0letely off-topic.

[ZKOKQ 984]

4 hours ago, SamYeager said:

@ZKOKQ - Not to put too fine a point upon it but your post has nothing to do with flight simulation or FSW and is com0letely off-topic.

No, not really off topic mate. DTG's buisness model from their TS franchise was tested on the FS community, and clearly, it has not worked has it ?  It is relevant, and their early access for FSW. is the same as TSW, only difference is FSW fell over first.

Edited May 1, 2018 by ZKOKQ

[torium 207]

On 4/30/2018 at 4:14 PM, Henry Street said:

Their plan broke down because they were not able to provide a feature and addon rich upgrade for those new users because of the "Dovetail DLC way". Very few of the addon makers in our community were willing (or able, based on flightsim product margins) to give up 60% or their retail price to Dovetail/Steam. [.......]  They DID NOT understand the long term market cycle in this community. Mathias pointed this out. Froogle's "money, money, money" perspective is a little oversimplified but accurate. 

Then I can repeat Chris Trott's comment on Froogle, quote: "Flight1 and Aerosoft both took 50%+ of the sale price of an addon before the digital download revolution took hold and allowed developers to self-publish. Aerosoft is not a DEVELOPER first, they are a PUBLISHER first."

"Money, money, money" (ABBA).

[torium 207]

On 4/30/2018 at 7:43 AM, SamYeager said:

Of course maybe they'll decide that selling add-ons aka DLC  for higher prices to P3D users makes better business sense.

Good point. I already have that experience. 

[theohall65 64]

I'm curious how DTG is "money-grabbing", but apparently none of the other flight sims, which so many defend vociferously, cost more to get the same content, yet none of them have near the level of graphics quality inside the cockpit or in the sky.

DTG gave away FSW to anyone who owned Flight School - real money grab there

DTG is about to release all the DTG developed DLC (the mission packs they created) for free.  Another money grab there.

Heck, FSW was on sale for about $10 US repeatedly from the time it was released and the DLC wasn't priced any higher than what is seen for all of the other sims.  The 3rd party DLC Arrow III - same price across all sims - another real money grab there.

Most of this thread is just another continuation of lame opinions which completely ignore facts - especially when it comes to this "money grab" BS.

Seriously - go compare pricing for X-Plane and the same DLCs, P3D and the same DLCs, even FSX and the same DLCs - then fly them and tell me you have the same graphics level for the planes and the sky, because none of you can actually say that with any honesty.

Because if this was supposedly a DTG money grab, then what the heck is P3D doing?  Their pricing is f'in ridiculous in comparison.

So, please, the next person who posts about this money grab BS, put up the prices for those other sims and the DLC necessary to get the same quality level in your reply for comparison, otherwise it's just the same continuation of crap opinions, not facts, which got FSW killed in the first place.

This review https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198058290952/recommended/389280/ is by far the most accurate review I've read.  This thread isn't anything close.

[Bobsk8 12,492]

47 minutes ago, theohall65 said:

I'm curious how DTG is "money-grabbing", but apparently none of the other flight sims, which so many defend vociferously, cost more to get the same content, yet none of them have near the level of graphics quality inside the cockpit or in the sky.

DTG gave away FSW to anyone who owned Flight School - real money grab there

DTG is about to release all the DTG developed DLC (the mission packs they created) for free.  Another money grab there.

Heck, FSW was on sale for about $10 US repeatedly from the time it was released and the DLC wasn't priced any higher than what is seen for all of the other sims.  The 3rd party DLC Arrow III - same price across all sims - another real money grab there.

Most of this thread is just another continuation of lame opinions which completely ignore facts - especially when it comes to this "money grab" BS.

Seriously - go compare pricing for X-Plane and the same DLCs, P3D and the same DLCs, even FSX and the same DLCs - then fly them and tell me you have the same graphics level for the planes and the sky, because none of you can actually say that with any honesty.

Because if this was supposedly a DTG money grab, then what the heck is P3D doing?  Their pricing is f'in ridiculous in comparison.

So, please, the next person who posts about this money grab BS, put up the prices for those other sims and the DLC necessary to get the same quality level in your reply for comparison, otherwise it's just the same continuation of crap opinions, not facts, which got FSW killed in the first place.

This review https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198058290952/recommended/389280/ is by far the most accurate review I've read.  This thread isn't anything close.

DTG counted on suckering people into paying for very expensive and not well done DLC, just like they have done for years with their TrainSim. When they saw this wasn't going to happen, they bailed out. 

[A32xx 129]

10 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

DTG counted on suckering people into paying for very expensive and not well done DLC, just like they have done for years with their TrainSim. When they saw this wasn't going to happen, they bailed out. 

When Microsoft leased the FSX licence to Dovetail Games in preference to a rival bid from a consortium of well-known flightsim developers and publishers, those developers and publishers closed ranks against Dovetail Games.
If you've ever wondered why AES Credits don't work in FSX:SE, and never will, now you know.
That's why those 'in the know' initially predicted the inevitable failure of FSW.
Those who jumped on the bandwagon added the lack of content, the business plan and anything else they could think of, but the root cause went deeper, wider, and much further back than that.

They say all's fair in love and war, but in business what goes around, comes around.

Edited May 2, 2018 by A32xx