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Guest jahamilton

The principle of justifying costs. Payware or Corporations

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You weren't invited to go fishing...did you win or lose?


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton PP|ASEL

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You asked this of another developer, and we quote...."Perhaps if you as a developer released profits, actual costs, data costs, maybe we can understand the high costs, small area justifications that you attempt in your pricing scheme."Note: You asked them to release business information....seems you asked them to do it first and did not offer to reciprocate until challenged.


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton PP|ASEL

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Thanks for asking. :-)We are now 6-9-1, which means we are still in 5th place out of 8 teams.... We have one more game left next thursday, and then the tournament which is double elim which begins the following Tuesday. With our seed, looks like we will be playing the #4 seed, which we are 1-2 against.Here's a pic of my team, and another with my son playing first base. We were tied going into the 6th inning. My son hit a textbook line drive double, and drove in what would have been the winning run, but the other team came back in the bottom of the 6th, scored 4, and we lost by one run, 12-11. Oh well, the kids played hard and they never give up always having fun. :-)The team and I posing for glory, before the game. :-).http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/117291.jpg..My son playing first, and then as he hit his line drive double right before he made contact because Dad coaching first hit the button too soon. :-).http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/117292.jpgOh yeah, we are the only team to have beaten the Padres which are 14-1 right now. :-)Now we're going to BBQ, (Mushroom and Swiss burgers anyone, I'm cooking), and then head to the pool, as its about 100 degrees here today.And I apologize for being wrong about saying we would win. See I'm not right all the time, you know. :-lol :-lolCya,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]


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Great bunch of kids Joe! Thanks for posting the shots. Win, lose, or draw it's a blast to watch the youngsters play:-) :-)


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton PP|ASEL

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You don't get it, I would have sent this in a message, but you are one of those that chooses to leave that disabled, which is fine. So I'll just tell you here.I'm choosing not to respond to you, I'm ignoring you for the most part, and I don't care if you like that or not.Just as some here ignore my posts, I also ignore some posts here at Avsim. You are one of them. Simple as that.Sonar5


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Guest jahamilton

I don't wish to inflame the polemic here.However, the principle and the discussions do merit some thought.Does a customer/prospect have the right to demand of a supplierthat they open "their books" and MO to the public at large in orderto justify a price?I work in the aerospace industry marketing non-destructive testingproducts. I meet with people worldwide and the job is fascinating.We always have the "to & fro" concerning pricing, delivery andservice. In most cases resolved on a yearly discussion basis.Indeed, there are occasions when the negotiations do not go as wewould all wish. Part of life in this business.The negotiation process revolves around price, customer service,maintenance support, manufacturer speed of response and the general"comfort level" of the customer with his supplier.We make every effort to satisfy our customers.They are hard to find to begin with and once we have them we don'twant to lose them.------------------Occasionaly I come across someone who does ask me to "open the books" and justify our pricing.I(we)refuse.Simply because that if I did, the information would be misconstruedand incorrectly interpreted.Furthermore, I would then receive instructions on how to run abusiness from someone who only has one point of view in mind.-------------------------------------------------------------It's a difficult position that we are in.Please the customer; but nevertherless be firm......!!I note that you do this everyday at AVSIM.Regards, JAH - Los Angeles.

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Guest Ken_Salter

Thread cleaned up a bit

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Guest Erick_Cantu

Tangent - on the subject of value and cost, three things that will always make it too expensive for me:-Inaccurate visual models.If you are a payware developer, you can try a little harder. Most people seem to use 'systems modelling' as an excuse. If you are going to spend all this effort on a panel and put a minimum into the model, why bother selling the model at all? I would gladly pay for a good panel sans model if the model was uselsss and only contributed to a price hike. Most models aren't perfect (excluding Jorge Oppenheimer's, everything he models is perfect, get over it), but there is a certain level people could attain - things like a spinning fan hub on a JT8D, incorrect wing shaping, reversers etc etc - my big issue, speaking from being on both sides of the fence, is that payware developers often get to take courtesies that freeware developers cannot. I can tell you right now that if the fan hubs on my DC-9 spun I'd never hear the end of it, if a commercial developer did the same...?"It's just a small thing, we don't care nor should you."And then the rabid foaming users with their supporter banners (did I mention that I hate these? Even when they support me, I hate them. They suck. And blow. At the same time) in hand take care of the rest - the same people who'd give a freeware developer a really hard time for making the same mistake.Zvaaaa...? I thought payware was to be held to a higherstandard?If I am paying for the model it had better be worth it.-Poor panel graphicsNot necessarily poor, but misplaced. I can appreciate a really good rendered or hand drawn panel, I'm not exclusively a photoreal person. I do take away huge points for nonsense layouts. I cannot STAND jumpseat panels. PERIOD. I make a few exceptions but otherwise, they belong back in FS98. If I am going to give you, the developer, my cash, I want to be able to see the pilot's viewpoint (I can't help it really, Dreamfleet spoiled me). Your systems programming could be perfect, but it's meaningless if the panel doesn't convey a certain feel - simulation is as simulation does but part of simulation is how it looks not just how it operates, and people need to get over this simple fact. You need to strike a balance...-Poor soundsSometimes I wonder what goes through the minds of some sound developers - both TS and FS - and for the most part payware sounds rarely impress me on either side of the equation. All of the die-hard sound junkies I know are freeware people. Who knows why, I surely don't, but I appreciate it when a sound designer actually makes it sound right - I have yet to hear a CFM56-7 set that sounded right, I don't even like mine (though in my personal opinion they're the closest, mostly because everyone else ignores the correct whine and fan noises, really, have any of them even heard a CFM56?).I hate nothing more than a rabid fan base saying that a soundset is the best ever and that nothing else compares when it doesn't even have a sound remotely close to the real thing at any given power level. Sounds are NOT a throw-away afterthought.With that in mind there are some groups which I cannot think of any reason to hesitate to buy from:1.) Dreamfleet - even though we often spar on visual model issues the panels almost always negate what I whine about, even if I am always right (:-hah). Honestly, if you want my personal preference on FS panels, look at the 737, old as it is, and you've got it.2.) StreamLines - die hard ATSF/SP /CP/CN fans are my kind of people. I may dislike their sounds to a degree (mostly the blending of the engine wav's, the rest is pretty good) but the rest of the total package makes up for it3.) MLT - Cascades Crossing rocks!4.) V-Scale Creations - even the garbage cans are photorealCome to think of it, not MLT per se but more or less Danny Beck himself...Some others I have no doubt fit on this list, but haven't done anything that interests me/and/or I'm too lazy to buy from. I know Eaglesoft fits into the latter category, now, their work looks superb, meh, I'm just lazy and don't really use FS much, hence the way I lean towards TS when it comes to payware. I've heard RealAir is pretty good too. Again, can't be arsed, though that Spit looks nice, and I hate 767s but the Level-D one looks marvellous...Though, I doubt anyone cares. Meh. Ignore me. :-hah

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Guest Erick_Cantu

Addendum: And I'm not saying that all commercial developers are like this, I'm just saying, it happens, and it's not pleasant.Also, there's an argument for high addon prices to do with real flying, the problem is it's not a congruous argument. For some people this is their equivalent of real flying, and if FS and the real world is apples and oranges when it supports your case, it is apples and oranges when it does not support you as well.The airplane is the simulator, fuel is electricity, and avionics are addons.Would you fit your small private plane with an FMS that theoretically costs more than the entire aircraft itself? Fuel costs are not part of the argument, yes, it may cost more to buy fuel in the long run than the plane itself, but the congruence is that my electric bill is the same with respect to FS. When you make comparisons they need to make sense, and this means you cannot compare the components of an item to an entire concept - only the components of an item to the components of another item or a concept to another concept.

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Guest Daniel Pimentel

Hey, here's a "banner boy"... Let's see Joe tear me a new one. :-lolReally, this whole talk is interesting, but it comes down to this: You are paying for a service, the provider knows what it's worth, not you. I'll provide an example.When I take photos of things, I am providing a service to a customer who wants to buy the photos. I have something he wants. Does HE set the price of my photos? NO. Do I have to tell him how I took the photos to justify my price? NO. I am providing a service that I offer at WHATEVER price I want. If you don't want to pay it, it means you can't pay for what I know is the right price for the quality of my service. I would then sell it to someone who CAN (or is willing to) pay for my services for what they're worth. I don't care if YOU think my photos are too expensive, you don't set their worth. I do. And as long as I can sell them to someone, your opinion will continue to be irrelevant.The simmer doesn't set the price, the developers do. If people are willing to buy at a given pricepoint, the cheapskates can bite me for all I care. As long as my price is met by the intended target audience, then my service is priced correctly. So Joe, my words to you: You're outnumbered. :) If Eaglesoft (or any developer) is making the desired profit off their products at the pricepoint they have it in, they would be fools to bring the price down so you feel warm and fuzzy inside and buy. You are the margin of the demand curve that the payware developer is willing to let go off in order to maximize their profits per purchase in relation to demand.If the price is too steep for you to be able (or willing) to pay, the reality is that it's too bad. As long as most others are willing to pay the stipulated price, no payware developer has to justify its costs, all they have to say is "at the price point, I am selling the quantity I want to sell", and that's it. Whether the service cost enough to produce to justify the expense is irrelevant.Just my 2 cents, with my supporter banner and all. Gee, I must be just another "minion" standing for my masters. :-lolDaniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

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Guest Erick_Cantu

*Sigh* Danniel, I am your master and you know it. Unless...you...lied...to me. *cries*

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Guest Daniel Pimentel

I only said that to get your 727-200 beforehand... :-lol Daniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

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Guest Erick_Cantu

You're cheating on me, aren't you? *dies*

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Guest Daniel Pimentel

Yes... I'm almost sold on the DF727. :-lolDaniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

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