Froogle's take on FSW and possible impact on P3D

[chelmo 42]

3 minutes ago, HighTowers said:

Their only recourse might be to sell it to the consortium of developers who were bidding on it a few years back depending on all the fine print of course of the license. Even at that, it would have to be at a significantly reduced price. The whole thing is a mess with a lot of bitter parties.

That is based on the assumption they still have "something" to sell. My guess is they don't.

If you look at the company's accounts for the last period (to 31 March 2017 - freely available via the Companies House website) you will see they are paying for "technology being used in one of the company's simulator products" until 24 December 2018. I think it reasonable to assume there is a six-monthly instalment due on 24 June 2018 which has precipitated this debacle; the tech probably doesn't belong to them until the final sum is paid.

Of course, that could leave the original consortium free to step in but one wonders what the point would be.

[jon b 2,041]

As has been said, LM are quite clear in their licensing statement, therefore any “blame” would be with individuals deliberately buying the cheaper inappropriate licence as a cost saving measure, not LM. 

However if enough fuss is made I could see LM  removing any future ambiguity by simply removing the academic option completely. A shame for the school/college kids, but they would still have FSX SE available to them.

cheers

 

Jon

[Ray Proudfoot 8,927]

5 minutes ago, jon b said:

As has been said, LM are quite clear in their licensing statement, therefore any “blame” would be with individuals deliberately buying the cheaper inappropriate licence as a cost saving measure, not LM. 

However if enough fuss is made I could see LM  removing any future ambiguity by simply removing the academic option completely. A shame for the school/college kids, but they would still have FSX SE available to them.

cheers

 

Jon

That's my concern. They may decide to play it safe and withdraw the Academic licence. If only the Pro version was then available it could have a knock-on effect with 3rd party developers and the FS community.

Do prospective owners of v4 play it safe and buy the pro licence or risk waiting only for the academic one to be withdrawn with minimal notice?

[ErichB 3,638]

25 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

That's my concern. They may decide to play it safe and withdraw the Academic licence. If only the Pro version was then available it could have a knock-on effect with 3rd party developers and the FS community.

Do prospective owners of v4 play it safe and buy the pro licence or risk waiting only for the academic one to be withdrawn with minimal notice?

If the Academic license was suspended, I'm can't see that it would affect those who have already bought the license.  They may simply just discontinue selling to anyone new.

[Beardyman 604]

Fully agree with Froogle, but his speculations about killing LM by Dovetail law actions were totally redundant, or even harmful. 

After watching his vlog someone at DT may catch that idea and actually follow.

Better do not give stupid ideas and dirty inspirations. 

[Patco Lch 1,463]

I converted to P3DV4 this year and bought the professional license so I could face the man in the mirror. Legal issues aside I do think LM is a little loose making the Academic license so freely available without any verification. Seems to be on a wink and a nod basis. I can see DTG position in spite of people's opinions on their business model.

Could they win in court? Sometimes the David vs Goliath model could get them sympathy. Strange things happen when lawyers smell Money. In the past Froogle was right in pointing out the hazard to the community in the abuse of the Academic.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I don't see a lawsuit happening. I think I first bought my P3D v1 back in 2012 so LM has been in the market probably 7 or 8 years now, DTG came late and did pretty much the same as MS Flight by trying to control everything, this was just a repeat of MS Flight but by a different company, I dare someone else to try that again. 😫

Edited April 30, 2018 by Matthew Kane

[Sticky 267]

lawsuit? probably not. However, sudden corporate decisions are sometimes followed by some action of some kind.  Maybe a complaint to Microsoft which will cause something to happen to P3D....who knows.

[n99wb 10]

13 minutes ago, Sticky said:

lawsuit? probably not. However, sudden corporate decisions are sometimes followed by some action of some kind.  Maybe a complaint to Microsoft which will cause something to happen to P3D....who knows.

I would imagine LM pays millions annually to MS.  You'll be giving the Sales Rep a heart attack with that kinda talk.

[shivers9 1,174]

Don't know why  Froogle would want to stir the pot up with this mess. One last time....DTG could have saved themselves by coming up with a motorized vehicle with a box on the back to haul stuff. No wait...someone else already does that too. If your lifes work is to re-invent the wheel then you are going to get run over a lot. 

[tjstreak 53]

Dovetail suing LM strikes me as a dead dog loser.  There has never been a contract between Dovetail and LM.  Both of them had contracts with Microsoft, but not with each other.  Microsoft could conceivably make the claim, but Dovetail really cannot make it on behalf of Microsoft.  Dovetail lacks standing to bring a claim.

Moreover, LM is selling a different product than Dovetail.  Prepar3d is based on the ESP version of flight simulator, and Dovetail did not possess any of the rights to ESP.

Also, Dovetail was selling an incomplete and unfinished product.  T;hey have no intention of finishing the product.  They made a lot of promises, which have all proven to be lies and propaganda.  It's sort of hard for them to complain that they were not able to cheat more people.

I really don't see how LM could enforce the EULA.  Some academic discounts could require a copy of a student ID, or and edu e-mail address.  However, may people enrolled in flight schools will not have a student ID or an edu address.  It strikes me that people enrolled in a flight school is exactly the market LM is directed at.

In some ways, Prepar3d has some value as a recruiting tool for the military.  If high school kids enjoy playing with flight sims, they may be more inclined to sign up for the Air Force or Navy.  I have always thought that military recruiters should be handing out free copies of Prepar3d to high school students.  And LM could be handing out  free copies to politicians, especially those involved in military appropriations.

LM is and will continue to be a major defense contractor.  Prepar3d serves to support the marketing in this business.  Jacking up the price of Prepar3d really does not serve that end.

I suspect Dovetail is in financial straits.  They overpaid Microsoft for the license they obtained.  At the time they purchased this license, FSX was six years old.  Microsoft had already sold FSX to the people who were interested in purchasing it.  I suspect they had royalty payments coming due, and decided to cut their losses.

 

[Greggy_D 935]

4 hours ago, costamesa said:

Did LM start to offer academic license after DTG acquired the rights? I thought they knew about the academic license and its conditions when they were buying the rights from Microsoft?

Exactly.  LM licensing options existed far before the DTG/FSW association.

 

[Christopher Low 5,332]

.....and armchair lawyers existed a LONG time before that!

[kowen 64]

Absolutely this has me a little bit worried. Froogle is dead on. Defense contractors do what they can to avoid the spotlight and especially avoid lawsuits. Remember, LM sells this engine to the government in various different contracts they own. If any of those contracts are up for re-compete, or they are chasing other contracts with the engine, there will be problems. Government folks avoid risk, and if there are parts of a proposal that is in ligation, that will be interpreted as risk to the evaluators.

LM probably gets some good testing and feedback by allowing it be used by the flight sim community and they might get some decent revenue out of it. However, the money for them is with the defense dollars they get incorporating the engine with other programs, services, and products. If Dovetail were to sue for loss of revenue, it would affect how LM approaches the release of P3D to the public. We don’t know how much LM gets from the public sales versus the lawyer fees to fight the battle versus the risk of losing contracts/sales.

Dovetail has shown itself to be greedy and might even be spiteful. No one really knows what the end game at LM is as well. It is all speculation, but a good topic to discuss and Froogle brought up a good point.I believe there is a risk of P3D going purely professional and becoming harder to get. 

[anden145 2,284]

I seriously doubt, that DoveTail Games are planning or preparing to sue Lockheed-Martin... On what grounds?! It's ludicrous, in my opinion. It would be similar to company A suing company B over competitive reasons. The only basis for such actions is jealousy... I'm fairly certain, that such a case would be dismissed quite quickly.

DoveTail Games has no-one to thank for their fate, than themselves, IMO...