NGX Auto ILS?

[trisho0 23]

15 hours ago, Budbud said:

Hello,

The key to understand what is going on is to check the FMA. If the armed modes when you press the APP button are FAC and GP instead of LOC and GS, chances are that the frequency you entered doesn't match the ILS frequency of the scenery. This would be supported by the fact that you say no LOC armed. 

You may have to check the ILS scenery on the map window of the sim to confirm that it is the same as the one entered on the nav receiver.

 

Hello Romain, from FMA of PFD I saw only FAC and GS after pressing APP, yes. I will check the map window ….. good help!

[trisho0 23]

I get the frequency/heading from FMC and I enter the frequency in NAV radios and the heading value in HDG window. Should I enter a value to Course window? I have seen such Course window as "000" but when I am close to the arrival airport that numbers change itself and stay. I will test my flight plan again.

[trisho0 23]

1 hour ago, MarkJHarris said:

Before you begin the approach, select the INIT REF page on the CDU. Usually, just pressing the INDEX button brings it up.

That is where I get the frequency/heading to enter values accordingly.

[Budbud 227]

4 hours ago, trisho0 said:

I have seen such Course window as "000"

The ILS course should be set on the course window, not the heading window.

3 hours ago, trisho0 said:

That is where I get the frequency/heading to enter values accordingly.

The ILS frequency and course that you can read here in the FMC is from the nav database updated with the AIRACs and may not match the frequency/course of the scenery (the nav database of the FMC and the one of the sim for the sceneries are two different things).

To be sure you have the matching ILS frequency/course, look at the data in the map window of the sim.

You can also update the nav database of the sim with the utilities on this website:

http://www.aero.sors.fr/

[trisho0 23]

41 minutes ago, Budbud said:

The ILS course should be set on the course window, not the heading window.

The ILS frequency and course that you can read here in the FMC is from the nav database updated with the AIRACs and may not match the frequency/course of the scenery (the nav database of the FMC and the one of the sim for the sceneries are two different things).

To be sure you have the matching ILS frequency/course, look at the data in the map window of the sim.

You can also update the nav database of the sim with the utilities on this website:

http://www.aero.sors.fr/

I think I am confused again (lol). I thought the Heading window is where we enter the course as we do for PMDG 747 and 777. Let's say from FMC NAV page we have ILS 109.70 / 096 then I enter 096 in Heading window and the frequency into both NAV radios from Pedestal. You say I need to enter into Course window from MCP right? Before, I did a flight and entered the 096 in Heading window and the plane landed fine. I can't arm LOC but APP the bird lands well centered on runway. And The Course window was 000 but it changed to 103 by itself near the arrival airport.

I am still in troubles can't get LOC armed, it won't do anything.

The map window from the sim showed the same info as FMC frequency/course.

I will give a visit to http://www.aero.sors.fr/

[Budbud 227]

Well yes I can see your confusion. The heading window of the MCP has nothing to do with the ILS. It is the window where you set the heading you want the aircraft to fly when using the HDG mode of the AP. On final, you usually set the rwy QFU which corresponds (most of the time) the ILS course because you usually will fly runway heading on go around at least on the initial climb, but it doesn't have any use for the ILS appraoch itself.

The 737NG and the 777/747 are different in the sense that on the NG you set the ILS frequency on the nav receiver and the course on the course window, while on the 777/747, the FMS manages this on itself (you don't set the ILS frequency on the nav receiver and there is no course window on the MCP.)

Also, the 777/747 will reset automatically the heading window of the MCP to the runway heading when the LOC is captures while the NG doesn't.

24 minutes ago, trisho0 said:

And The Course window was 000 but it changed to 103 by itself near the arrival airport.

On the NGX, the course window is automatically reset to the ILS course (of the scenery) but it is a sim feature and not a real feature of the aircraft.

Anyway, the key to be able to capture the ILS on the NGX:

_ Enter the ILS frequency on the nav 1 receiver (if ILS cat1) or on both nav receivers if ILS cat II or cat III. Check that the ILS frequency you enter matches the one of the scenery (map of the sim). It may be different from the one in the FMC due to the updated database of the FMC with the AIRAC.

_ Enter the course on the left course window (ILS cat I) or both course window (ILS cat II or cat III)

_ Arm APP and verify that LOC and GS are both displayed in white on the FMA below the active mode in green

_ The value you set on the heading window is usually the intercept heading to the LOC. You will reset it to the runway heading when the LOC is being captured.

[trisho0 23]

31 minutes ago, Budbud said:

_ Arm APP and verify that LOC and GS are both displayed in white on the FMA below the active mode in green

I don't think LOC will be displayed in FMA from PFD if the LOC is not armed. I can't arm LOC.

What do I enter in Course and Heading windows? Note that I enter the FMC Nav info like …../096 into Heading window from MCP and the plane lands fine by applying only APP. Forget the LOC (lol). My NGX bird makes happy landings ILS or manual. LOC won't lit and won't show in FMA.

I know something I am not doing correctly …..

 

[Budbud 227]

If you press on the APP button, both LOC and GS will be armed. If you press on the LOC button, only LOC will be armed, not GS. LOC is also used on the NGX to track a VOR radial (contrary to the 747/777 in which you cannot track a VOR radial).

What do you mean when you say that you cannot arm the LOC? Do you mean that you press on the LOC button but nothing happens?

To be able to arm both LOC and GS, you need to receive the ILS LOC signal at least. If you are out of range, or if you have an invalid frequency set, it won't work.

14 minutes ago, trisho0 said:

the plane lands fine by applying only APP

If you cannot arm the LOC mode but you can perform the approach with the APP, I bet you are flying an RNAV approach with the IAN (FAC/GP) and not an ILS (LOC/GS).

Once again check the ILS frequency on the map of the sim.

On the course window, you enter the ILS course. On the heading window you enter whatever heading is suitable for the phase of the flight.

When flying with LNAV engaged, you will usually keep the heading window set to the current heading to avoid a sudden turn to either side if the LNAV mode drops for any reason (reversion from LNAV to HDG).

If flying with HDG SEL engaged, you control the aircraft heading with that heading window.

 

Also don't be confused between approach and landing. RNAV or ILS are approaches. The landing itself is a different thing. You can manually land following any kind of approach (visual, ILS, RNAV, VOR, NDB...) but you are only allowed to perform autoland following ILS cat II and cat III approaches (even if the aircraft is technically able to perform autoland following ILS cat I and RNAV approaches.)

 

Seeing that this is not clear to you, have you flown the tutorial? It is a good help to understand how to handle the FMC and AP of the aircraft.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Budbud

[trisho0 23]

13 minutes ago, Budbud said:

What do you mean when you say that you cannot arm the LOC? Do you mean that you press on the LOC button but nothing happens?

That's correct, nothing happens.

14 minutes ago, Budbud said:

flying an RNAV approach with the IAN (FAC/GP) and not an ILS (LOC/GS).

That's correct, because I can't arm LOC yet.

16 minutes ago, Budbud said:

Once again check the ILS frequency on the map of the sim.

It matches same info.

16 minutes ago, Budbud said:

On the course window, you enter the ILS course. On the heading window you enter whatever heading is suitable for the phase of the flight.

Here is where I am confused …… I learned to enter heading from 747 and 777. Here in 737NGX is what confuses me. I guess what ever I enter to Heading window from MCP in 747 and/or 777 is what I do the same for NGX. But now, the Course window from NGX is where should I enter the info right? If so, what do I enter into Heading window then?

23 minutes ago, Budbud said:

If flying with HDG SEL engaged, you control the aircraft heading with that heading window.

Yes, I found that so I am very carefully do not touch it unnecessarily.

27 minutes ago, Budbud said:

Also don't be confused between approach and landing. RNAV or ILS are approaches. The landing itself is a different thing. You can manually land following any kind of approach (visual, ILS, RNAV, VOR, NDB...) but you are only allowed to perform autoland following ILS cat II and cat III approaches (even if the aircraft is technically able to perform autoland following ILS cat I and RNAV approaches.)

I see ….. I understand that Approach guides me to do landings; not the same meaning but linked.

31 minutes ago, Budbud said:

Seeing that this is not clear to you, have you flown the tutorial? It is a good help to understand how to handle the FMC and AP of the aircraft.

I did tutorial but I need to go back to learn more, surely I missed many things from manuals.

Thanks so much Romain for giving me great Help!

[MarkJHarris 128]

You must remember the NGX is a representation of an aircraft that has evolved from effectively a 1965 collection of spare parts bought together by the senior designers of the 707 and 727 over a long weekend brainstorming session. It's a frankenstein's monster of old and very old tech, with a mass of systems wiring, that's been updated over time with new systems, gradual digitisation of invdividual systems, but no real integration or databus application. Everything is discrete and wired separately.

Remember that and look at the aircraft from first principles. 

Firstly, you MUST look to update your simulator nav database. Trust me, Runway 09/27 at LBA and Meigs field are long gone.....

Secondly update the FMC with Navigraph. An up to date set of data on both will solve a lot of your issues.

Now, the 737. It's always had a set of navigation boxes under the floor, with antennas in the nose and on the fin. The boxes on the centre pedestal are just controllers and there's loads of variations. Too many for PDMG to contemplate coding. They just select frequencies though.

Later NG software loads enable warning where course is not correctly set, showing in yellow the course with line through it in the top left of the PFD. Nice. 

The NAV course selectors are the outside windows on the MCP. It's good practice to set both correctly.

If I remember, there's an option to inhibit IAN on the oprtions list? If so, you should inhibit it to eliminate this, then go somewhere with an ILS that hasn't changed in decades. Manchester 23R has been 109.5 since I was a kid? It was 236' when I started, now 232'. If you select a Honeywell (Sperry) MCP that will get rid of the IAN for you. The correct procedure is to intercept the ILS at 30' angle with LOC armed. Them once this changes on the FMA to green, arm APP. 

Be particular in that you remember the MCP is your WISH panel- select what you want. but that the FMA at the top of the PFD is your ACTUAL state.

FMA= Flight Mode Annunciation. On older aircraft it's a set of lights next to the ADI. Same job. What's lit is what you have.

I only fly the NG, but I have a nice FJSim 737-200ADV to play on in X Plane. It reminds me where we've come from.....

If they hadn't kept the common rating, the 777/744 is where we could have ended up. shame really. 

[trisho0 23]

I flew KJFK-PHDL and entered the frequency/course info from FMC NAV page. The frequency entered into NAV radios from Pedestal, both NAV little panels. Entered the course into Course window from MCP, both Course windows (both FD armed). Now the plane did LOC and after green I armed APP. The plane landed ILS but not centered on runway, I had to land manually. I didn't see the typical "Land 3". I will have to fly again to find what error I did. On the another hand, what should I see or entering from Heading window?

[Budbud 227]

8 hours ago, trisho0 said:

The plane landed ILS but not centered on runway, I had to land manually.

The ILS of the scenery may be slightly misplaced or the course offset by a few degrees. The possibility is that due to the magnetic variation changing over time, the ILS course of the FMC database may be slightly different from the one of the scenery. To be sure check on the map of the sim that they match.

8 hours ago, trisho0 said:

I didn't see the typical "Land 3"

Did you engage both APs once established on the ILS? The land 3 should display at around 1500ft radio if I recall well if the aircraft is properly configured for autoland.

On the another hand, what should I see or entering from Heading window?

I have answered several time to that question. The heading window has nothing to do with the ILS approach or landing. So it is up to you what you want to enter there. But basically, if you intercept the LOC in HDG mode, then you enter here the heading the intercept the LOC. If you use LNAV to intercept the LOC, you will keep the HDG window matching the heading commanded by LNAV.
Once established on the LOC, you will enter the runway heading on the heading window. But you could fly the whole ILS approach and the landing with any value entered in the HDG window, it would not interfere with the approach or landing.

The value in the heading window only really matters when flying in heading mode since the FD will guide you following the heading entered. In any other modes, the FD will command whatever heading is required by the other modes (LOC, LNAV) and will not take into account the heading window.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Budbud

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Safe to say that it's probably best to run through the tutorial a few times, honestly...otherwise, people are just going to be providing its content piece by piece, without pictures, confusing the whole concept.

Please, just spend some time with the tutorial. Just about every question I've seen in this thread is covered there. It's in context, it has pictures, it has explanations...and nobody is having to go out of their way to have to spoon feed the info, bit by bit.

[FalconAF 213]

As an aside, updating the base sim navigation data, along with using something like the Navigraph current AIRAC cycle, may NOT solve all your airport navigation problems.  Numerous payware addon airports don't get updated when their ILS frequencies change, etc.  My FS DreamTeam KLAS is STILL out of date for the ILS frequencies (and runway numbers for the new 8/26's), even after the new update for the Terminal D not long ago. The only way to fix these things in addon airports is for the user to make their own changes using something like ScruffyDuck's Airport Design Editor.  

[downscc 1,327]

13 hours ago, FalconAF said:

Numerous payware addon airports don't get updated when their ILS frequencies change, etc. 

That is because those developers simply reuse the stock navaids.... you'll often see the DME in the wrong (default is collocated with localizer) location.  FSDT is getting much better, but I have complained in their forum (complaining here doesn't fix FSDT problems) and one of their updates in the past year included the new runway numbering and taxi signage.  Not sure how he missed the localizer for 26L... I didn't notice that because like you, I use ADE often at addon locations if for no other reason than to create realistic pushback links for GSX.  Bottom line, please post issues with other developers in their forums.  I always get good responses from most of them and even FSDT, although a little less polite than Kyle, does respond in a manner.