EGPWS Warnings

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

Good day everyone.

I have realized EGPWS doesn´t repeat the warnings (it just launch itself one time). And It make it unrealistic. Is there any way to modify this?

Thank you!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

52 minutes ago, Gianluca Gomara said:

I have realized EGPWS doesn´t repeat the warnings (it just launch itself one time). And It make it unrealistic. Is there any way to modify this?

Can you explain in more detail what you're referring to, citing a specific source?

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Can you explain in more detail what you're referring to, citing a specific source?

Yes, of course.

Yesterday, I was flying the boeing 737-800 of PMDG, I was in a too hight approch, then I have started too descend until a sinkrate, but, the ground proximity warning system (GPWS) say the voice alert "sink-rate" one time, and then, I realized that it didnt say it one more time, like in the real life, when you´re in a sinkrate the voice alert continuos warning the pilot about the sinkrate if no action was taken. But in this 737 800 that does not happen, if you get in a sink-rate you will be adviced only 1 time. In the 747 this is not like this, it works like it got to.

Source: https://imgur.com/a/Puzi9gb

In that picture you can see the GPWS mode 4 was activated and the voice "too low terrain" has been heared, but only one time, then, I have being in the same altit. and I got no warning again.

[downscc 1,327]

Gianluca:  I think Kyle asked you to cite a specific source that says the "sink rate" alert should be heard multiple times in the NG.  A good source would be documentation from Boeing or the GPWS manufacturer. 

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

17 minutes ago, downscc said:

Gianluca:  I think Kyle asked you to cite a specific source that says the "sink rate" alert should be heard multiple times in the NG.  A good source would be documentation from Boeing or the GPWS manufacturer. 

If Youtube videos are allowed here you go: 

an

No only sinkrate, I mean all, pull up, too low terrain, flaps, gear...

[downscc 1,327]

I've never seen PMDG accept YouTube videos as authoritative.  This one in particular is very generic.

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

5 minutes ago, downscc said:

I've never seen PMDG accept YouTube videos as authoritative.  This one in particular is very generic.

Well, I have always see in real flights simulator, the voices alerts repeating, for example this 737 sim:

Even If I have no official documentation I think it is always like this in all Boeings planes.

Those are my sources excuse me if it isnt still acceptable

 

[BrianW 124]

The aural “sinkrate” warning will only will repeat for each 20% loss of altitude while in the mode 1  envelope. The “pull-up” should continuously repeat while inside the inner mode 1 envelope. Based on the descent rate in your screenshot you may have not met the criteria.  A good test might be to recreate the altitudes and descent rate in the video above and see if you get the same results.

[richjb2 195]

3 hours ago, downscc said:

I've never seen PMDG accept YouTube videos as authoritative.  This one in particular is very generic.

That video would be authorities, since it's one of Honeywell's EGPWS training videos.  

However, as BrianW noted the Mode 1 GPWS will repeat itself in the real airplane.  Don't ask me how I know. 🙂

Rich Boll

Wichita KS.  

[richjb2 195]

From the Honeywell MK V and MK VII EGPWS Pilot's Guide:

BASIC FUNCTIONS:
MODE 1
Excessive
Descent
Rate
Mode 1 provides alerts for excessive descent rates with respect
to altitude AGL and is active for all phases of flight. This mode
has inner and outer alert boundaries as illustrated in the
diagram and graph below.
Penetration of the outer boundary activates the EGPWS caution

lights and “SINKRATE, SINKRATE” alert enunciation.

Additional “SINKRATE, SINKRATE ” messages will occur for
each 20% degradation.
Penetration of the inner boundary activates the EGPWS
warning lights and changes the audio message to “PULL UP”
which repeats continuously until the inner warning boundary
is exited.
Note: “Pull Up” may be preceded by “Whoop, Whoop” in
some configurations based on the audio menu option selected.

060-4241-000 • Rev. D - March 2000
10 MK V & MK VII EGPWS Pilot Guide

I'm not sure what model EGPWS is in the Boeing aircraft, but if it's a Honeywell model the calls should be consistent. 

Rich Boll

Wichita, KS

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

14 hours ago, richjb2 said:

From the Honeywell MK V and MK VII EGPWS Pilot's Guide:

BASIC FUNCTIONS:
MODE 1
Excessive
Descent
Rate
Mode 1 provides alerts for excessive descent rates with respect
to altitude AGL and is active for all phases of flight. This mode
has inner and outer alert boundaries as illustrated in the
diagram and graph below.
Penetration of the outer boundary activates the EGPWS caution

lights and “SINKRATE, SINKRATE” alert enunciation.

Additional “SINKRATE, SINKRATE ” messages will occur for
each 20% degradation.
Penetration of the inner boundary activates the EGPWS
warning lights and changes the audio message to “PULL UP”
which repeats continuously until the inner warning boundary
is exited.
Note: “Pull Up” may be preceded by “Whoop, Whoop” in
some configurations based on the audio menu option selected.

060-4241-000 • Rev. D - March 2000
10 MK V & MK VII EGPWS Pilot Guide

I'm not sure what model EGPWS is in the Boeing aircraft, but if it's a Honeywell model the calls should be consistent. 

Rich Boll

Wichita, KS

Well I knew almost all about this. But, that is not the case, the thing is PMDG737 is not simulating it like you said. Thanks for your information.

[berts 97]

On 5/9/2018 at 9:04 PM, Gianluca Gomara said:

Yesterday, I was flying the boeing 737-800 of PMDG, I was in a too hight approch, then I have started too descend until a sinkrate, but, the ground proximity warning system (GPWS) say the voice alert "sink-rate" one time, and then, I realized that it didnt say it one more time, like in the real life, when you´re in a sinkrate the voice alert continuos warning the pilot about the sinkrate if no action was taken. But in this 737 800 that does not happen, if you get in a sink-rate you will be adviced only 1 time. In the 747 this is not like this, it works like it got to.

Source: https://imgur.com/a/Puzi9gb

In that picture you can see the GPWS mode 4 was activated and the voice "too low terrain" has been heared, but only one time, then, I have being in the same altit. and I got no warning again.

I'm sorry, but it is simply not possible to give you a definitive answer to your questions here (or reasonable to criticise the PMDG 737 setup) if you are simply relying on unverified data like the image in your Source file and the Youtube video of the MPS Boeing 737-800.  The aircraft in the image file (presumably of the PMDG 737) is clearly not set up correctly for flight, so there is no way of knowing precisely what part of the Ground Proximity Warning System is working correctly or what is not.  Although I haven't bothered to look at it, the Youtube video is also unreliable as an authority on EGPWS because in its title it says "GPWS" and not "EGPWS".  There are significant differences and improvements between the original GPWS systems fitted to aircraft like the B737 and the later enhanced (EGPWS) versions.     

23 hours ago, BrianW said:

Based on the descent rate in your screenshot you may have not met the criteria.  A good test might be to recreate the altitudes and descent rate in the video above and see if you get the same results.

Looking at the V/S needle in your image file the aircraft is almost flying level, so I agree with Brian's comment about not meeting the criteria.  The fact that you say you have been at the same altitude and "got no warning again" also supports this conclusion.  What I will say, though, as a rough guide you can expect to receive a Mode 1 Ground Proximity Warning  (i.e excessive descent rate) if the ROD exceeds 3 times the radio height above the terrain. For example, if the aircraft altitude is 1000ft radio and you have a rate of descent in excess of around 3,000ft per minute you will trigger a warning - try it and see.

In the real world any Ground Proximity Warning is considered to be critical and demands an immediate conditioned response from the pilot for both full and partial warnings. A quick reaction time is essential, because the design criteria for a Mode 2 warning (terrain closure) is generally only about 4 seconds with a minimum pitch increase rate of 2 degrees per second to between 15 and 20 degs nose up.  Past experience has shown that these warnings will usually occur when the pilots least expects it and when weather or darknes is a factor. One survey a few years ago recorded average reaction times of 5.4 seconds with some taking as much as 13 seconds and an avergae rotation rate of 1.4 degrees to 8.2 degrees nose up (the lowest was only 4.1 degrees)!  The statistics for CFIT make for grim reading, because an increase in altitude of only 700ft is usually more than has ever been required to avoid ground contact in such accidents.  If you are flying straight and level at 220 kts in a modern passenger jet you can usually gain 700ft for a 37kt loss of airspeed just by rotating the aircraft to 15-20 degs pitch up!

Bertie       

[Gianluca Gomara 0]

In this video you can clearly see how mode 1 warnings doesnt work porperly. This DOES NOT only happen with this mode. It also happen with anothers.

https://youtu.be/DkNQxygjdFY