Saitek Pro Yoke / Throttle instead of Honeycomb kit

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

2 hours ago, jimelder2 said:

I have had problems with Saitek throttles.  The throttles on the screen have been known to jump around with no input from the levers.  A shot of tuner/contact cleaner, available at most electronics stores, does the trick.  Not perfect, but cheap.

Jim Elder

Jim,

The potentiometers in the Saitek kit are of poor quality. They last a few years but then wear out. I did investigate cleaning them but dirt isn't the problem as they are sealed very effectively. Opening them up is a nightmare. They're designed that way deliberately.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

1 hour ago, MarkDH said:

There is an alternative clamp that will keep your yoke where it needs to be. The downside is it costs an extra £75 ()and if you are retro-fitting, you also have to pay FedEx shipping, which brings it to about £100). You can see more about the clamp in this video.

The lack of buttons on the Yoko remains a problem for me irrespective of the improved clamping system.

[oemlegoem 29]

deleted

Edited June 3, 2018 by oemlegoem

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

41 minutes ago, MarkDH said:

Well as I've said before, the logic seems straightforward in that shipping the yoke with a USB quadrant requires an extra USB controller. When you sell thousands of units this is a significant saving.

Regarding connection, here is what I have understood through experiments. The USB quadrant is a standard HID. As such it has unique Product and Vendor ids. When you plug it into a USB controller, Windows (or the controller, I'm not sure) assigns it a further unique Instance id (or 'unit id'). This means that identical HIDs can be distinguished. This can cause problems, depending on the application software. In my experience, there are two kinds of problem.

The first problem is, some applications don't check the unit id and use the product name string to address a device. The Windows Control Panel Game Controller Settings dialog is a sort-of-example of this, as you cannot distinguish two identical devices (such as Saitek Quads) in the list of devices in any way other than their position. This is also a problem if you use Leo Bodnar BBI-32 boards. Same for FSX - you can't tell which is which because it just lists the names. BUT - in each case you can select the device uniquely and manipulate it. So, in Control Panel you can independently calibrate each quadrant. And in FSX you can independently program each quadrant (or BBI-32 controller. You just have to remember which is which by the position it appears in the list.

The second problem is that the unit id is not necessarily conserved when you unplug the device from the USB controller. This means that unplugging devices can cause your programming to be lost. FSX is notorious for being 'helpful' in assigning default mappings when it thinks you have plugged in a new device, which makes things even worse.

In my experience, this is only a problem for FSX (and I presume P3D) in the sense of the unplug/replug loss of identity. So if you don't unplug a device, it isn't a problem. My initial experiments with X-Plane 11 were less satisfactory. With BBI-32 boards, I think I found that you could program switches on multiple boards with apparent success, but when you came to operate the switches, only switches on the first board were detected. I am sure this is a shortcoming of X-Plane, because if you use SPAD.neXt you can successfully and reliably program multiple BBI-32 boards independently. (SPAD.neXt also works with FSX and P3D, of course.)

ANYWAY.

No promises, but I have two Saitek quads lying idle near to hand and so perhaps I will do a short experiment as you requested.

My understanding is the USB throttle quadrant does not have a unique ID. Hence why Saitek made the one supplied with the yoke a PS/2 connection ensuring any second quadrant would have a unique ID. If you were to plug in a second USB quadrant Windows would not assign it a unique ID and therefore FSX/P3D could not recognise it from the other one.

You seem to confirm this in your reply. Unplugging a device and then plugging it back in to a different USB port will give it a different ID in FSX/P3D. Ouch! I remember that in the early days of FS when I had to ensure devices were plugged into the same port otherwise you had problems.

But all this is irrelevant really. I've already said that for an extra £62 I can get a new yoke and that's the route I intend to take.

I'd still be interested in your experiment of plugging two USB throttles into the Saitek yoke and see how Windows recognises them. That's the key really since FSUIPC simply uses the unique ID assigned by Windows. The type of sim used is irrelevant.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

I remembered a friend who lives a couple of miles away had a Saitek he had bought but because of its size preferred to use his CH yoke with integrated throttle levers.

He’s bringing it around shortly and if it works okay we’ll agree a price and I just need to order the extra throttle. 😀

[MarkDH 234]

1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I remembered a friend who lives a couple of miles away had a Saitek he had bought but because of its size preferred to use his CH yoke with integrated throttle levers.

He’s bringing it around shortly and if it works okay we’ll agree a price and I just need to order the extra throttle. 😀

If you want to try an interesting experiment, try plugging in both yokes at the same time. I am confident you will be able to address and program each yoke, including its quadrant, independently in the manner I described above. In the meantime, here is my FSUIPC log file for a virgin FSX-SE install with two USB quads plugged in. I went on to program the quads as Throttle1/Prop1/Mixture1 and Throttle2/Prop2/Mixture2 in the FSX controls dialog and then successfully took the beech Baron for a spin.

 

********* FSUIPC4, Version 4.974 (24th February 2018) by Pete Dowson *********
Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit with SP 1.0 reported as Build 7601 (OS 6.1)
fsx.exe version = 10.0.62615.0
Reading options from "D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\Modules\FSUIPC4.ini"
Running inside FSX Steam Edition on Windows 7
Module base=16E90000
User Name="Mark Hurst"
User Addr="##################"
FSUIPC4 Key is provided
WIDEFS7 not user registered, or expired
       16 System time = 03/06/2018 12:11:31
       16 FLT path = "C:\Users\Mark\Documents\Flight Simulator X Files\"
       16 ------ Module Version Check ------
       16        acontain.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       16             api.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       16        controls.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       16      fs-traffic.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       16             G3D.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       16        language.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       31            sim1.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       31        visualfx.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       31         weather.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       31          window.dll: 10.0.62615.0
       31 ----------------------------------
       63 Trying to connect to SimConnect Steam ...
       78 FS path = "D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\"
      406 ---------------------- Joystick Device Scan -----------------------
      437 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant
      453    Manufacturer= Saitek
      453    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.0)
      453    GUIDs returned for product: VID_06A3&PID_0C2D:
      453       GUID= {E55E82A0-6724-11E8-8001-444553540000}
      453       Details: Btns=9, POVs=(0, 0, 0, 0), Cal=x00000000, Max=R0,U0,V0,X255,Y255,Z255
      453       GUID= {E8599A30-6724-11E8-8002-444553540000}
      453       Details: Btns=9, POVs=(0, 0, 0, 0), Cal=x00000000, Max=R0,U0,V0,X255,Y255,Z255
      484 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant
      499    Manufacturer= Saitek
      499    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.0)
      499 -------------------------------------------------------------------
      515 Device acquired for use:
      515    Joystick ID = 0 (Registry okay)
      515    0=3 axis 9 button joystick
      515    0.GUID={E55E82A0-6724-11E8-8001-444553540000}
      515 Device acquired for use:
      515    Joystick ID = 1 (Registry okay)
      515    1=3 axis 9 button joystick
      515    1.GUID={E8599A30-6724-11E8-8002-444553540000}
      515 -------------------------------------------------------------------
      546 LogOptions=00000000 00000001
      546 -------------------------------------------------------------------
      546 ------ Setting the hooks and direct calls into the simulator ------
      546 --- CONTROLS timer memory location obtained ok
      546 --- SIM1 Frictions access gained
      562 --- FS Controls Table located ok
      562 --- Installed Mouse Macro hooks ok.
      562 --- Wind smoothing fix is fully installed
      562 --- SimConnect intercept for texts and menus option is off
      562 --- All links checked okay
      562 -------------------------------------------------------------------
      562 SimConnect_Open succeeded: waiting to check version okay
      562 Trying to use SimConnect Steam
      562 Opened separate AI Traffic client okay
     1685 Running in "Microsoft Flight Simulator X", Version: 10.0.62615.0 (SimConnect: 10.0.62615.0)
     1685 Initialising SimConnect data requests now
     1685 FSUIPC Menu entry added
     1732 D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\flights\other\FLTSIM.FLT
     1732 D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\FSX\SimObjects\Airplanes\Aircreation_582SL\Aircreation_582SL.air

 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

Thanks Mark. Definitive proof each USB quadrant has a unique identifier. I was basing my info on something I read a few years ago so maybe Saitek did sort out the identifiers.

I probably won’t plug in two yokes but will experiment with two USB quadrants just to satisfy my curiosity. 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

My friend brought the yoke around but to my surprise the throttle was a USB, not PS/2. Hmmm.

I took out my yoke and PS/2 quadrant and installed his. I plugged both quadrants into the Saitek yoke hub,

Whilst Windows Devices and Printers shows a Yoke it also shows two throttle quadrant entries. Reasonably enough. I fire up P3D and go into FSUIPC Assignment settings. I move my old throttle quadrant and it's recognised. I move the new one and it isn't. Neither axes or buttons are recognised.

I shut down P3D and look at FSUIPC.INI. This appears to be the problem...

Product= Saitek Pro Flight Yoke
      124    Manufacturer= Saitek
      124    Vendor=06A3, Product=0BAC (Version 3.0)
      124    Assigned joystick id 1 (Registry okay)
      124    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8001-444553540000}
      140 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant
      140    Manufacturer= Saitek
      140    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.0)
      140    Assigned joystick id 2 (fixed Registry)
      140    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8002-444553540000}
      140 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant
      156    Manufacturer= Saitek
      156    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.1)
      156    Assigned joystick id 3 (fixed Registry)
      156    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8002-444553540000}

You can see the problem. The same GUID for both units. FSUIPC has identified each with different IDs but that doesn't appear to help. The GUID has to be unique for P3D / FSUIPC to recognise each unit.

Looks like I'm going to have to return this to my friend and purchase the new yoke with a PS/2 throttle quadrant.

The log gives a clue but not the answer to the quadrant problem...

********* FSUIPC4, Version 4.965 (6th April 2017) by Pete Dowson *********
Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit with SP 1.0 reported as Build 7601 (OS 6.1)
Prepar3D.exe version = 3.4.22.19868
Running inside Prepar3D v3 on Windows 7
Module base=16F60000
User Name="Ray Proudfoot"
User Addr=""
FSUIPC4 Key is provided
WideFS7 Key is provided
        0 System time = 03/06/2018 14:08:02
        0 FLT UNC path = "\\FLYING\Documents\Prepar3D v3 Files\"
        0 ------ Module Version Check ------
        0        acontain.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0             api.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0        controls.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0      fs-traffic.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0             G3D.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0        language.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0            sim1.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0        visualfx.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0         weather.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0          window.dll: 3.4.22.19868
        0 ----------------------------------
        0 Trying D:\P3D\Modules\SimConnectP3D3.dll
        0 Found it: trying to connect
        0 FS UNC path = "\\FLYING\P3D\"
      109 ---------------------- Joystick Device Scan -----------------------
      109 Product= CH PRO PEDALS USB
      109    Manufacturer= CH PRODUCTS
      109    Vendor=068E, Product=00F2 (Version 0.0)
      109    Assigned joystick id 0 (Registry okay)
      109    GUID= {03555ED0-3045-11E3-8007-444553540000}
      109 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Yoke
      125    Manufacturer= Saitek
      125    Vendor=06A3, Product=0BAC (Version 3.0)
      125    Assigned joystick id 1 (Registry okay)
      125    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8001-444553540000}
      125 Product= Saitek Pro Flight Quadrant
      125    Manufacturer= Saitek
      125    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.0)
      125    Assigned joystick id 2 (fixed Registry)
      125    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8002-444553540000}
      125 Product= <not readable at this time: maybe device disconnected?>
      140    Manufacturer= Saitek
      140    Vendor=06A3, Product=0C2D (Version 2.1)
      140    Assigned joystick id 3 (fixed Registry)
      140    GUID= {D38AB310-30F5-11E3-8002-444553540000}

 

Well the device is definitely connected so I'm guessing the duplicate GUID is the problem.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Ray Proudfoot
additional info

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

A bit more info. I unplugged the new quadrant from the yoke and plugged it into my PC. Fired up P3D and this time it is recognised by FSUIPC but my existing one isn’t.

This seems to confirm that the system will recognise the first USB device but not the second where the GUIDs are identical.

[Biggles2010 342]

Ray,

The duplicated GUID problem may be related to plugging both the usb quadrants into the yoke. Have you tried plugging one. or both of them, directly into your pc.

Secondly, what happens if you generate a new GUID, using an online GUID generator, and substitute that for the duplicate, in the FSUIPC config file.

 

Edit: Just seen you've now tried one directly in your pc. What happens if both are plugged directly in your pc.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Biggles2010
update

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

Hi Biggles,

I haven’t tried plugging both directly into my PC. I imagine the same problem will occur as the GUID appears not to change however they’re connected.

I wasn’t aware a GUID Generator existed but even if I was to use it is it a one-off action or does it need running for each pc session? Unless the firmware of the unit can be written to maybe it’s only a temporary thing.

I’ve decided to return it not purely because of this problem but because the LED display flickers and something is loose inside the yoke case and can be heard when you move it. That could be an issue later on.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

An update...

I noticed I didn’t have the latest version of FSUIPC so updated to it. The first time I launched P3D the same problem existed so I shut it down and looked at the CSV file FSUIPC generated. This indicated that each of the quadrants had been successfully identified.

So I fired up P3D again, went into the FSUIPC interface and this time each quadrant was successfully identified. I can only assume updating to the latest version solved the problem as I noticed some people with P3Dv4 had similar problems last year and Pete updated that version.

I’ll set everything up with the new yoke / throttle and see how I get on.

Thanks to all who helped.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

Gave things more thought overnight. My yoke is fine. Checking movement using the default Windows program shows no spikes in either horizontal or vertical axes. So that can stay.

I've ordered two Logitech Throttle quadrants, both USB having convinced myself FSUIPC can recognise both. They should arrive Thursday.

Thank you @MarkDH for convincing me 2xUSB does work.

I can now carry on enjoying flying without worrying about Honeycomb and release dates.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Ray Proudfoot

[MarkDH 234]

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Thank you @MarkDH for convincing me 2xUSB does work.

I can now carry on enjoying flying without worrying about Honeycomb and release dates.

No worries. It will be a shame if the Honeycomb gets watered down too much but it remains intriguing. I will badger Aerosoft for a loaner yoke if it ever does see the light of day. I may even buy the throttle quad if that part about making the trim wheel motorised comes to pass. That will definitely help make the autopilot more convincing.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,919]

35 minutes ago, MarkDH said:

No worries. It will be a shame if the Honeycomb gets watered down too much but it remains intriguing. I will badger Aerosoft for a loaner yoke if it ever does see the light of day. I may even buy the throttle quad if that part about making the trim wheel motorised comes to pass. That will definitely help make the autopilot more convincing.

I can't see how they could add a motorised trim wheel for $200. When I spoke to Nikki Repenning last November at the Euro show in Lelystad he did mention about beta testers. Whether I'm invited remains unknown. Sod's Law says I'll be sent the kit now I've invested in new throttles.