FSL back at it again

[Captain Kevin 586]

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

Just about every payware add-on I've seen tells you you should be doing that, and I've seen posts where people had issues that appear to have been solved simply by running the simulator as admin. I'm looking at the intro manual for the PMDG Boeing 747-400, and it even tells you that.

[patrice_bambou 85]

So, FSL put some files inside Windows directory. And what?

Is it forbidden? I don't think so.

Does my system crash? no.

Does P3D crash? no.

Do they spy me? no.

A storm in a glass of water.

I surely will buy the A319 when it comes on the market.

FSL rocks.

Patrice.

 

[overspeed3 410]

In a previous reply to this contentious topic, I stated that I would probably not purchase other FSL products until this matter was somehow resolved (I have both the FSL Concorde & the A320 for FSX).

But a search of both Windows, and my registry produced zero results for "cmdhost.exe".  Now I'm a little confused - I fly the A320 regularly - I read here it would not load if "cmdhost" was not present?  

So, I think my previous stance may have been a little premature?  Does the original post apply only to P3D?  Or is it just another mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

[188AHC 2,138]

I tend to look on topics such as this and the completely negative comments about a vendor/product  with a jaundiced eye when I suspect the majority of the complainers don't own the item in question nor have they competently researched the so called programmers insult to the community.

The simple solution is to not buy it if you don't like it. Put your money where your mouth is.  No one is making you purchase something you don't feel comfortable with. Use what you have or purchase something else. Problem solved and I'm sure it would be beneficial to your blood pressure.

All the griping, accusing, lambasting in the world obviously will not make you feel better.

Move on.  There are much more serious things in life other than what a vendor does to protect his software.

 

 

[chapstick 2,757]

10 minutes ago, 188AHC said:

I tend to look on topics such as this and the completely negative comments about a vendor/product  with a jaundiced eye when I suspect the majority of the complainers don't own the item in question nor have they competently researched the so called programmers insult to the community.

I'm an FSL customer. I bought the A320 before the malware scandal broke. Just getting that out of the way so that you know where I'm coming from.

10 minutes ago, 188AHC said:

The simple solution is to not buy it if you don't like it. Put your money where your mouth is.  No one is making you purchase something you don't feel comfortable with. Use what you have or purchase something else. Problem solved and I'm sure it would be beneficial to your blood pressure.

I agree - voting with your wallet is the most straightforward solution. But we need to be able to discuss the ethics of companies' business practices so we can choose what products to buy. And not just for flight sim add-ons, but literally everything in life that we have to buy. That's why this is a topic worthy of discussion.

12 minutes ago, 188AHC said:

Move on.  There are much more serious things in life other than what a vendor does to protect his software.

You could make this statement about the entirety of this hobby we all enjoy. I could tell you to go volunteer at a soup kitchen because it adds more value to society than sitting in front of a computer pretending to be a pilot. But I'm not going to tell you that because that's unrealistic and silly. Just as it's unrealistic to run a flight sim community and expect everyone to move on and shut up when a developer screws up... or starts threatening the community with libel suits.

[ms2 184]

13 minutes ago, 188AHC said:

Move on.  There are much more serious things in life other than what a vendor does to protect his software.

Hello 1888HAC

No problem for me for protections of softwares, I buy always what I want and use, but in this case, do You think, it is a safety one ?... because haved the intention to buy it... 

[188AHC 2,138]

6 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

You could make this statement about the entirety of this hobby we all enjoy. I could tell you to go volunteer at a soup kitchen because it adds more value to society than sitting in front of a computer pretending to be a pilot. But I'm not going to tell you that because that's unrealistic and silly. Just as it's unrealistic to run a flight sim community and expect everyone to move on and shut up when a developer screws up... or starts threatening the community with libel suits.

Nobody is preventing you from discussing this issue. It's when the wheels come off as has happened in the past that the topic is moderated.

At this point in time, there is no proof that "the developer has screwed up".  That is your opinion and you haven't substantiated any damage to you or your system.

As for volunteering, I have logged over 2200 hours of volunteer service in the last 3 years and I don't even count the hours I've volunteered here at AVSIM since I became a moderator.

I return to what I said before, if you are unhappy with FSL, then don't buy their product. Simple.

 

 

[F737MAX 5,508]

1 hour ago, patrice_bambou said:

So, FSL put some files inside Windows directory. And what?

Is it forbidden? I don't think so.

Does my system crash? no.

Does P3D crash? no.

Do they spy me? no.

A storm in a glass of water.

I surely will buy the A319 when it comes on the market.

FSL rocks.

Patrice.

 

 

3 minutes ago, 188AHC said:

I tend to look on topics such as this and the completely negative comments about a vendor/product  with a jaundiced eye when I suspect the majority of the complainers don't own the item in question nor have they competently researched the so called programmers insult to the community.

The simple solution is to not buy it if you don't like it. Put your money where your mouth is.  No one is making you purchase something you don't feel comfortable with. Use what you have or purchase something else. Problem solved and I'm sure it would be beneficial to your blood pressure.

All the griping, accusing, lambasting in the world obviously will not make you feel better.

Move on.  There are much more serious things in life other than what a vendor does to protect his software.

[My emphasis in bold]

I have to take exception to these points of view. Just because a developer makes a very good and popular product, it does not excuse them from questionable practices.

Simply avoiding the developer's product if you don't like their customer service, anti-piracy or installation methods is not enough in our niche community when there are enough people who ignore these major issues and continue to buy from FSL.
It gives implicit permission for them (and other developers) to take decisions that affect the community without the rest of us being able to take a stand and encourage better customer relations through our wallets.

I, and many other simmers, want to be able to use our purchases in this hobby without the fear of having personal data leaked through malware, our O/S potentially damaged by clumsy file installations, or be unable to make or to read valid criticisms of products in public for fear of litigation. Right now that is what continued purchases of, or moving on from debating, FSL products encourages.

Highlighting unfavourable practices on forums and refusing to buy their products until FSL changes how they operate helps all of us as customers in this community.

[kevinfirth 1,392]

4 hours ago, Captain Kevin said:

You should really be running the simulator as admin anyhow, FSL or not.

Really, why exactly please? 

[kevinfirth 1,392]

1 hour ago, Captain Kevin said:

Just about every payware add-on I've seen tells you you should be doing that, and I've seen posts where people had issues that appear to have been solved simply by running the simulator as admin. I'm looking at the intro manual for the PMDG Boeing 747-400, and it even tells you that.

yes but do you understand why they are telling you to do that?  are there any downsides to it is my question?

[Luke 782]

1 hour ago, Captain Kevin said:

Just about every payware add-on I've seen tells you you should be doing that, and I've seen posts where people had issues that appear to have been solved simply by running the simulator as admin. I'm looking at the intro manual for the PMDG Boeing 747-400, and it even tells you that.

And those add-ons are either poorly coded, or broken. Running a user applications with full permissions is a security nightmare, but developers put the "run as admin" mantra in their documentation because they don't want to deal with issues from people who can't work their computers properly.

I never run my sim (FS9, FSX or P3D) as admin, have never had issues with it my add-on aircraft or add-ons (except AS which insists on running as admin for no good reason that I'm aware of).

Sorry, but this is one of my many pet peeves; many people complain about Windows' poor security then go out of their way to subvert it.

Cheers!

 

[pete_auau 1,152]

3 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Really, why exactly please? 

this  is  only  for  user  that have  actually  installed  their  addons  in the  program(86)  folder   that u  need  to  run  as  admin   could  be  wrong

Edited June 3, 2018 by pete_auau

[dave2013 1,123]

54 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

I'm an FSL customer. I bought the A320 before the malware scandal broke. Just getting that out of the way so that you know where I'm coming from.

I agree - voting with your wallet is the most straightforward solution. But we need to be able to discuss the ethics of companies' business practices so we can choose what products to buy. And not just for flight sim add-ons, but literally everything in life that we have to buy. That's why this is a topic worthy of discussion.

You could make this statement about the entirety of this hobby we all enjoy. I could tell you to go volunteer at a soup kitchen because it adds more value to society than sitting in front of a computer pretending to be a pilot. But I'm not going to tell you that because that's unrealistic and silly. Just as it's unrealistic to run a flight sim community and expect everyone to move on and shut up when a developer screws up... or starts threatening the community with libel suits.

Well said!

Dave

[honanhal 1,420]

This hobby is small enough that “Love it or leave it” is not a realistic answer to issues like these.

If you want a highly realistic Airbus, you have one choice. Oh, and it comes with some unethical and possibly illegal business practices. This is not a simple choice. I’m not inclined to be dogmatic on these issues. I fully accept that my computer is very unlikely to be directly harmed by either of these problematic practices, so I’m not taking a meaningful personal risk in using their product (and yes, I’m an FSL customer).  But that really doesn’t answer the questions of 1) are these practices ok? And 2) is it good for our hobby to continue to support FSL?

For me, the first answer is very clearly “no,” which is why I’m deeply discouraged by the fact that FSL not only has not changed its practices but also clearly feels the community, and their customers, will let them get away with it. That in turn affects my answer to the second question. After the first scandal, I decided that in light of their apology, and what I thought was the certainty that they wouldn’t be dumb enough to pull something again, I would continue to buy their products. They’re a hugely talented developer tackling things no other will (eg serious Airbus simulation, Concorde). That’s a huge good for our hobby, and I was weighing that against “made a big mistake once.”

Now, I think it’s time to revisit that calculus. Between the clear unrepentant attitude on display, their attempts to muzzle FS media/discussions about it, and the precedent it sets for the whole community, I’m strongly inclined not to support them any longer. They are talented, but there are limits.

Here’s a question for those untroubled by these practices. You don’t think either of these scandals crossed a line. Ok. Is there a line, and what would cross it for you?

James

[signmanbob 592]

2 hours ago, patrice_bambou said:

So, FSL put some files inside Windows directory. And what?

Is it forbidden? I don't think so.

Does my system crash? no.

Does P3D crash? no.

Do they spy me? no.

A storm in a glass of water.

I surely will buy the A319 when it comes on the market.

FSL rocks.

Patrice.

 

I have  the FSLab's A320 and have since it was released.   I see no negative effects on my computer what-so-ever.

Both P3Dv4 and X-Plane 11 consistently run as smooth as silk on my computer.

Until I see solid evidence of problems on my computer from FSLab's beautiful and awesome Airbus A320, I will consider them innocent.

I look forward to purchasing their new Concorde for P3Dv4.

I'm sorry, I consider this thread to be harmful  to a valuable developer for our hobby and just plain unfounded gossip and nonsense. Just my opinion.