FSL back at it again

[757FO 143]

I am not particularly bothered with the latest as from what I understand, this file is needed to communicate with esellerate, they are doing what they can to protect their software, and I dont blame them for that (maybe how they do it can be questioned but I think this has been covered to death).  FSL has a great product with the A320X, however they are doing a very poor job with their PR and their attitude at their forums. There are many threads where they are more preoccupied telling people to use their real name rather than answer questions.... 

[John_Cillis 2,406]

2 hours ago, RollingRock said:

What is your point?   That best practices shouldn't even exist?   What we are talking about is not an extreme case of best practices.

Yes I develop with agile as well.   Best practices and standards still exist in an agile flow.   Agile does not mean "do whatever you want" or "don't worry about what the customer wants" as it seems is your sentiment here.

And also being a developer I have seen so many business and groups fail when there is not some level of organization and "best practice/lesson learned" environment.  It works both ways.

Point is there is a very common best practice in development whereas you do not touch system directories unless you have to.   That is not an example of extreme micromanagement so I really do not understand the point of reply or your sentiment at all.

 

I am not forcing you to understand it, I am a hobbyist here in the forums, hobbies should be a break from, as Grace Slick once sang "Corporation Games" in "We Built This City".  Grace Slick and Starship once rocked out Napa, where I used to live, I did not attend the concert but I could hear them from four miles away, the old fuddy duddies in the community complained about the noise, my parents, old fuddie duddies themselves, thought it was hilarious I heard a free concert from my bedroom window.  What Amps they must have used!

Back to topic, there are way too many experts here that can diss a developer for doing this or that, and draw someone like me in to the conflict before I realize I took the wrong side, as manipulative media does.  I do not like threads meant to target ANY developer out of business.  They have a right to exist, and deliver a product as they please, period.  The customer does not dictate development practices, all they expect is a product that works, no matter how it works.  How it works is really none of their business, not mine, not yours, it is in the developers wisdom to do whatever they need to do to succeed, to deliver their product at a price where someone will purchase, and to deliver a product that needs as little hand holding as possible, the nirvana of any help desk.

John

Lead QA, JDA Software

Lead Performance Tester, Best Western International

Team Leader, Holiday Inn Unix PMS Worldwide rollout

and blah blah blah blah blah......

[RollingRock 22]

31 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

How it works is really none of their business, not mine, not yours, it is in the developers wisdom to do whatever they need to do to succeed,

You have this completely backwards.   It is absolutely the business of the consumer to have an opinion on the nature of how a product functions that is being marketed to them.   The developer can take that information and do with it what they will but the sentiment you're expressing here is one that says the customer has no right to voice an opinion about the nature of a product.  That's absurd.

The marketplace is a two way street.   If a developer is doing something that the consumer does not like it is certainly the business of the consumer to pass that information along.  If the developer wants to thumb their nose at it and carry on then that's their right as well.  The consumer cannot force a developer to do things a certain way other than withholding their dollars.

Besides we're not talking about what choice of IDE or language FSLabs used to make the product.   We're talking about how the product interacts with the consumer's own property.   How can you say it's none of their business?

[honanhal 1,420]

47 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

The customer does not dictate development practices, all they expect is a product that works, no matter how it works.  How it works is really none of their business, not mine, not yours, it is in the developers wisdom to do whatever they need to do to succeed, to deliver their product at a price where someone will purchase, and to deliver a product that needs as little hand holding as possible, the nirvana of any help desk.

You don’t actually believe this, do you? What if their development methods are illegal or immoral? What if they stole all their art assets? What if they stiff their developers out of their salaries? (These are all things that, unfortunately, do happen in software development.) You don’t think the customer has any room to say “don’t do that”?

Reasonable people can disagree about where to draw the line — but you admit there is a line, right?

James

Edited June 3, 2018 by honanhal

[kingm56 1,023]

54 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

I am not forcing you to understand it, I am a hobbyist here in the forums, hobbies should be a break from, as Grace Slick once sang "Corporation Games" in "We Built This City".  Grace Slick and Starship once rocked out Napa, where I used to live, I did not attend the concert but I could hear them from four miles away, the old fuddy duddies in the community complained about the noise, my parents, old fuddie duddies themselves, thought it was hilarious I heard a free concert from my bedroom window.  What Amps they must have used!

Back to topic, there are way too many experts here that can diss a developer for doing this or that, and draw someone like me in to the conflict before I realize I took the wrong side, as manipulative media does.  I do not like threads meant to target ANY developer out of business.  They have a right to exist, and deliver a product as they please, period.  The customer does not dictate development practices, all they expect is a product that works, no matter how it works.  How it works is really none of their business, not mine, not yours, it is in the developers wisdom to do whatever they need to do to succeed, to deliver their product at a price where someone will purchase, and to deliver a product that needs as little hand holding as possible, the nirvana of any help desk.

John

Lead QA, JDA Software

Lead Performance Tester, Best Western International

Team Leader, Holiday Inn Unix PMS Worldwide rollout

and blah blah blah blah blah......

Based on your premise, Volkswagen was correct when they programmed their cars to manipulate EPA readings?  After all, they delivered a product that pleased them and their product worked; moreover, said product was produced at a cheaper price point.  In all my formal classes, i was always taught how you organize and deploy your code MATTERS.  I'm not sure where you were formally educated, but I can't believe they advocated for your perspectives, as it relates to software engineering.  

I don't know why we're listing credentials, but I'll play along...

MS Computer Science, University of Oklahoma

MBA Cyber Security, University of Maryland

CISSP/Sec+/Net+/A+/Cyber 200 & 300/PMP/CCNA

20+ years exp...

Blah blah blah; there are far more people with more qualified credentials then you or I.  To be clear, I'm not stating FSL did anything wrong in this instance; however, their track record and methodologies to date justify the increased scrutiny.  Finally, to state customers have no business with understanding how software interacts with their property is dangerous; and to be blunt, word not allowed...   

Edited June 3, 2018 by kingm56

[kingm56 1,023]

3 minutes ago, RollingRock said:

You have this completely backwards.   It is absolutely the business of the consumer to have an opinion on the nature of how a product functions that is being marketed to them.   The developer can take that information and do with it what they will but the sentiment you're expressing here is one that says the customer has no right to voice an opinion about the nature of a product.  That's absurd.

The marketplace is a two way street.   If a developer is doing something that the consumer does not like it is certainly the business of the consumer to pass that information along.  If the developer wants to thumb their nose at it and carry on then that's their right as well.  The consumer cannot force a developer to do things a certain way other than withholding their dollars.

Besides we're not talking about what choice of IDE or language FSLabs used to make the product.   We're talking about how the product interacts with the consumer's own property.   How can you say it's none of their business?

Well said, sir! 

[John_Cillis 2,406]

11 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Based on your premise, Volkswagen was correct when they programmed their cars to manipulate EPA readings?  After all, they delivered a product that pleased them and their product worked; moreover, said product was produced at a cheaper price point.  In all my formal classes, i was always taught how you organize and deploy your code MATTERS.  I'm not sure where you were formally educated, but I can't believe they advocated for your perspectives, as it relates to software engineering.  

I don't know why we're listing credentials, but I'll play along...

MS Computer Science, University of Oklahoma

MBA Cyber Security, University of Maryland

CISSP/Sec+/Net+/A+/Cyber 200 & 300/PMP/CCNA

20+ years exp...

Blah blah blah; there are far more people with more qualified credentials then you or I.  To be clear, I'm not stating FSL did anything wrong in this instance; however, their track record and methodologies to date justify the increased scrutiny.  Finally, to state customers have no business with understanding how software interacts with their property is dangerous; and to be blunt, word not allowed...   

JDA Software is used by 80 percent of the world's retailers and God Bless them went private shortly after I retired.  If you drive down the street and see a big box store, you will know what I have done and who I am.  Brag all you want, I know how I have helped in business and I know my customers (i.e. Target) have succeeded with the planogram programs we created for them so they could merchandise their products.  Best Western remains successful, if you go to their website, you will see where I have been, it is a good website that I helped test and design, because I know the customer.  If you want to credential dance, look me up on LinkedIn.  I was successful at what I did, could retire young, not rich, but satisfied, traveling and self sufficient.  I walk the talk.  'Nuff said, before my day gets ruined and I waste time here preaching to the deaf, dumb and blind...

[kaosfere 3,115]

I'm staying out of the debate regarding whether developers owe fealty to customers or vice-versa.  However there are a few facts/misunderstandings here that need some clarification.

First, regarding the claim that it is "normal" to install stuff into the 32/64 bit system directories -- while doable and not unheard of it is definitely not good practice.   Placing things into the WIndows directory itself is something I'm not fond of, but it's not abnormal to do it.   Violating the System directories is a bit more of a red flag for bad practice.

Second, regarding FSLabs' defence that it's part of their eSellerate configuration -- this may be, but I have examined other software installers for applications that use eSellerate (in particular, various products from FSDT, who not only use eSellerate but also the same Inno Setup installer that FSL uses, which made for an easy comparison).  FSDT install their eSellerate files into app data directories and into C:\Windows.   I'm not keen on the latter, but as I said, it's acceptable, and certainly moreso than into the System directories.

Third, they do not use any obfuscating names: they are "eWebClient.dll" and "eWebControl365.dll", nothing that can be confused with a system file.  It's possible that FSL are using a different eSellerate configuration, but that's addressed by the next point.

Because, finally, if you search google for "cmdhost.exe" and "eSellerate" you see very few hits, most of them related to this particular controversy.  That indicates that FSLabs are definitely using non-standard practice.

That is all concrete provable fact -- few matters of opinion there.  I welcome provable arguments to the contrary of what I posted above.

Now for the opinion:  without ascribing malice to FSL it still cannot be denied that they are using questionable and nonstandard methods (deceptive file names installing into sensitive system directories) that, in spite of their initial defense, are clearly not necessary for the proper functioning of the DRM protection they are using.

Given the history of this company and other recent controversy, that's at least a really bad look for them, and the explanation they have given is, at best, admitting to shamefully bad practice.  They have already made admissions in the past that indicate that they are willing to try to intentionally deceive their customers.  In that light, this is a worrisome development.

I'll spare you the citing of my technical credentials, decades of experience, and various professional certifications.  I don't like the you-know-what waving.

Edited June 3, 2018 by kaosfere

[RollingRock 22]

So what?   I build and write software for chips that are probably in your phone or car right now.  

I'm sure KingM can boast about his work too.

No one cares i'm sure.

What possible relevance does that have here other than you wanted to appeal to your own authority?

Edited June 3, 2018 by RollingRock
context

[kingm56 1,023]

5 minutes ago, Cactus521 said:

JDA Software is used by 80 percent of the world's retailers and God Bless them went private shortly after I retired.  If you drive down the street and see a big box store, you will know what I have done and who I am.  Brag all you want, I know how I have helped in business and I know my customers (i.e. Target) have succeeded with the planogram programs we created for them so they could merchandise their products.  Best Western remains successful, if you go to their website, you will see where I have been, it is a good website that I helped test and design, because I know the customer.  If you want to credential dance, look me up on LinkedIn.  I was successful at what I did, could retire young, not rich, but satisfied, traveling and self sufficient.  I walk the talk.  'Nuff said, before my day gets ruined and I waste time here preaching to the deaf, dumb and blind...

Sir, I'll remind you that it was you who posted their credentials first; to that point, to state I'm 'bragging' is unfair.  More importantly, I never attacked your work, which I'm sure you're proud of. Instead, I took issue with your assertions as it relates to software engineering, which is in direct contrast to what I've been taught.  For some reason, you seem overly emotional about this topic, which is leading to seeing slights that don't exist, incoherent posts and unnecessary name calling.  

[John_Cillis 2,406]

3 minutes ago, RollingRock said:

So what?   I build and write software for chips that are probably in your phone or car right now.  

I'm sure KingM can boast about his work too.

No one cares i'm sure.

What possible relevance does that have here other than you wanted to appeal to your own authority?

I think you are the pot calling the kettle black, and I will leave it at that....  I have been around a lot longer than you have.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

2 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Sir, I'll remind you that it was you who posted their credentials first; to that point, to state I'm 'bragging' is unfair.  More importantly, I never attacked your work, which I'm sure you're proud of. Instead, I took issue with your assertions as it relates to software engineering, which is in direct contrast to what I've been taught.  For some reason, you seem overly emotional about this topic, which is leading to seeing slights that don't exist, incoherent posts and unnecessary name calling.  

Judge not lest ye not be judged

[kingm56 1,023]

8 minutes ago, kaosfere said:

I'm staying out of the debate regarding whether developers owe fealty to customers or vice-versa.  However there are a few facts/misunderstandings here that need some clarification.

First, regarding the claim that it is "normal" to install stuff into the 32/64 bit system directories -- while doable and not unheard of it is definitely not good practice.   Placing things into the WIndows directory itself is something I'm not fond of, but it's not abnormal to do it.   Violating the System directories is a bit more of a red flag for bad practice.

Second, regarding FSLabs' defence that it's part of their eSellerate configuration -- this may be, but I have examined other software installers for applications that use eSellerate (in particular, various products from FSDT, who not only use eSellerate but also the same Inno Setup installer that FSL uses, which made for an easy comparison).  FSDT install their eSellerate files into app data directories and into C:\Windows.   I'm not keen on the latter, but as I said, it's acceptable, and certainly moreso than into the System directories.

Third, they do not use any obfuscating names: they are "eWebClient.dll" and "eWebControl365.dll", nothing that can be confused with a system file.  It's possible that FSL are using a different eSellerate configuration, but that's addressed by the next point.

Because, finally, if you search google for "cmdhost.exe" and "eSellerate" you see very few hits, most of them related to this particular controversy.  That indicates that FSLabs are definitely using non-standard practice.

That is all concrete provable fact -- no matters of opinion there.  I welcome provable arguments to the contrary of what I posted above.

Now for the opinion:  without ascribing malice to FSL it still cannot be denied that they are using questionable and nonstandard methods (deceptive file names installing into sensitive system directories) that, in spite of their initial defense, are clearly not necessary for the proper functioning of the DRM protection they are using.

Given the history of this company and other recent controversy, that's at least a really bad look for them, and the explanation they have given is, at best, admitting to shamefully bad practice.  They have already made admissions in the past that indicate that they are willing to try to intentionally deceive their customers.  In that light, this is a worrisome development.

I'll spare you the citing of my technical credentials, decades of experience, and various professional certifications.  They're irrelevant for this.

Sir, you articulated the point I was trying to make...  

[Skywolf 992]

https://support.esellerate.net/528#win

Edited June 3, 2018 by Skywolf
edit

[RollingRock 22]

Just now, Cactus521 said:

I think you are the pot calling the kettle black, and I will leave it at that....

I never once put out my own experience as any sort of justification for my argument other than to point out you are not the only developer here...

Quote

  I have been around a lot longer than you have.

Not an argument.