Payware insanity!!!

[mgh 89]

Did you check the coverage before you bought VFL London?Visual Flight's web site says:"50 sq miles detailed cityscape scenery! London City Airport London Air Ambulance Helipad Docklands, Thames Barrier, Dome, Dartford Bridge and more Geographically accurate rivers, docks, parks and lakes"It also says "Approx 50 square miles of Central London from Battersea to Docklands and beyond" and includes a map showing the coverage. The forums also deal the the question of coverage.I said very clearly "Visual Flight offers a 30-day money-back guarantee for purchases from its website." Visual Flight offers the download for

[Guest davidvoogd]

"I've never seen a freeware author take much of a beating for anything "That's because freeware authors get their complaints via email. One guy actually asked me what I was smoking the one time, the amount of nonesense complaints you get can be a bit funny - and for me most of my addons are just addon files and traffic files, just a couple scenery files. I've also received a lot of thank you emails mind you, and considering the little addons I've done that's quite appreciated, I hope those who make the complex freeware addons get many more thank you's than I do. I'll also agree that some of the payware guys get nitpicked on stupid issues.As for Rob H.'s comments on Friendly panels, I think there certainly can be a market for these simple style of panels. I did notice that they do contain some custom gauges as well. However as I pointed out to someone asking about them, the price is fairly high if you consider that for $30 US you can get a full plane package, panel-model-vc-sounds-and FD's. Of course you do get several different panels at once with them, but still I think that personally the price is a bit high for that - but if that is the type of addon panel someone wants - then by all means.

[boshar 6]

The problem with this 'marketplace' is that almost none of the merchants has a try before you buy scheme.I might like the Eaglesoft products but to find out if I'm right about this I would have to buy the product first. That means:- Getting hold of a credit card (don't own one anymore because in the EU it rarely usefull to me).- Install the product on one machine (rather limiting for a power user like myself)- Try out the product- And if its not to my liking I hope there is an option to get a refund?I have nothing against Eaglesoft as most of the addon producers work like this but all this work just to get to try the product hands-on is simply to much trouble to go through.The friendly panels guys do have a freeware section with some of their typical products so you can form your own opinion of their work. Other producers like Real Air also have freeware to try out and that is important to get a customer like me.An other important factor is the credit card only e-commerce systems. Not supporting systems like PayPal (I can setup a PayPal account at no extra cost without having to own a credit card). The only way I can get Flight1 products is when they release a CD retail version.

[Guest rana]

>Eric, I agree with much of what you said, but I have to take>issue with the notion that payware devs "get away" with stuff>that a freeware author would be hung for. I've never seen a>freeware author take much of a beating for anything but I have>on many many occasions seen payware devs be attacked>mercilessly for teensie weensy little issues that most people>wouldn't even notice or care about. And on the few occasions>when I have seen someone complain publically about some aspect>of a freeware add-on that person usually comes under serious>attack themselves. The general consensus seems to be that>since it's given free nobody has the right to complain about>it in any way. Thats the way it should be of course. If you>don't like it, delete it afaic, but to suggest that payware>devs get a free ride while freeware guys can't catch a break>seems totally off the mark to me...>> Hi Zevious,with my humble experience, I can concure with Eric to an extent. The reason you don't see many freeware developers taking a beating is, most freeware developer's don't have a support forum, but a contact form and personal email address.. so a lot of kudos and hate messages comes in format of personal emails. As I can see (from both personal and professional life), we/developers get grief from doing both Payware or Freeware...I also think Payware devs gets free'er (if such a word exist) ride. Naming no names, but there are sites out there who wouldn't put up freeware news most of the time (again this is from personal experience), where there would news bulletins from payware companies including future plan. I am not complaining much, as I am not sure if they pay for that news or not.. These news do create a lot of interest, and what it seems like a lot of sale.. Matters get worse when some users say "They would never try a freeware"..So recaping on what Mike started the thread with: when the freeware developers look around these environment, it is very hard not to switch sides. At least that way, you get to have a Ferrari.

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

I'd imagine most payware devs get quite a lot of direct email complaints to their support emails (which most have). But frankly, when you are a payware developer, public attacks on forums have much more of an impact on your bottom line than email complaints that the public can't see. I'm sure there are lots of idiots out there who make ridiculous complaints to freeware devs, but in the end, a freeware dev has the ultimate "free-ride" check-mate of being able to say "screw you moron" without the moron firing back with "hey, I paid good money for this, I WANT SATISFACTION!"

[edetroit 933]

'Tis true ...'twas my fault I did not read the small print and presumed London meant London.I have been burnt ...no probs I got a congestion charge fine today and that's far more irritating.The scenery has been erased from my HD and I will not purchase anything from Visual Flight in future. :)regardsEd

http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/115553.jpgAMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 128Mb DDR Nvidia 6600GT PCI Express, Audigy 2 ZS

[Guest davidvoogd]

You can blame software piracy for having no try it before you buy it, simple as that.

[gosta 0]

HI Ed,I've got the London scenery from OSS, and that one includes nearly every major landmark within the M25 (including Albert Hall, Kensington Palace, Battersea Power Station, Hammersmith Bridge etc.).Cheers,Gosta.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

[N400QW 205]

Very few folks in the market place will allow you to try their product out before purchase.Eaglesoft Development Group has had the same refund policy as Flight One since our inception. The Flight One wrapper system allows it and we have never had to refuse a refund request yet:-)

[boshar 6]

Didn't know that a refund option was buildin the Flight1 Wrapper.I just can't justify getting a credit card just to by flightsim add-ons. A real shame PayPal isn't supported in the Flight1 wrapper. Another gripe is that the add-on is bound to 1 particular computer. I can understand binding it to one user but being limited to one computer is just to limited for me. When I buy a flight1 CD version (like I did with the ATR I can put it on both of my computers without such limitations.Maybe I could go on hoping for a CD release of your products.Needless to say but I think some add-ons are certainly worth the asking price. Its the e-commerce troubles and the (needed) draconian anti piracy mechanisms that spoils it for me.

[boshar 6]

I was just advocating the release of 'light' versions (area limted like Active Camera, only outside aircraft liek MAAM's Briefing Time') or older projects so you can get a beter feel for the quality that an add-on maker produces.The piracy problem and the mechanisms that are used to combat them bring a whole new problem for the add-on buyer.My two machine limited add-ons (Captain Sims F-104 and Active Camera) always need special attention when installing. The producers are very friendly and offer enough help to get the add-on working again but I find the process very annoying and lately I just skip installing the F-104 because of all the extra steps needed. The anti piracy measures spoil my enjoyment of the product.I quit my creditcard hen it had to be renewed. I only used it to buy FS add-ons and the emergence of the anti piracy measures spoiled my fun. At the moment I only buy CD released add-ons so reinstall and use on both my FS machines is never a problem.For the record I never 'shared' an addon or 'installed for a friend' but I got fedup with the needlessly complicated installers.Sure maybe anti Piracy is needed but one look at a Peer 2 Peer listing server will learn you that it doesn't work. All recent add-ons are out there cracked ripped or whatever. The product is still pirated but also the sale to someone like me is lost because of the draconion 'protection'.

[mgh 89]

If you'd bought it from Visual Flight you could have got your money back so what's your problem with them?

[edetroit 933]

>If you'd bought it from Visual Flight you could have got your>money back so what's your problem with them?Their misleading description of their product. The OSS (thankyou Gosta) is described as London City Airport I believe and yet "nearly every major landmark within the M25 (including Albert Hall, Kensington Palace, Battersea Power Station, Hammersmith Bridge etc.)"Bye bye Visual Flight :-waveregardsEd

http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/115553.jpgAMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 128Mb DDR Nvidia 6600GT PCI Express, Audigy 2 ZS

[Guest dsflyer]

I.ve tried both. Visual Flight remains on my harddrive. Visually it is superior, no question. On the other hand if you miss the Festival Hall and a few buildings in the west then i guess OSS is the way to go.CheersDan:-)

[edetroit 933]

Thankyou Dan, actually I will not get the OSS scenery either. I thought the Visual Flight would be better but it was not what I needed.I just wanted to make my easterly approaches to LHR more accurate, as it is I will stick with my Gary Summons renditions of LHR and LCY plus freeware addons of Canary Wharf, Dome and London Eye and make Kensington Gardens/Hyde Park myself.It is what I should have done in the first place! :-hahregardsEd

http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/115553.jpgAMD Athlon 64 3500+, 1024Mb PC3200 DDR, 300Gb HD 128Mb DDR Nvidia 6600GT PCI Express, Audigy 2 ZS