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POSCON online flying

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5 hours ago, ckyliu said:

VATSIM have officially declined the offer from POSCON and given the alleged terms I don't blame them. I wonder if all this was a PR stunt? 

https://www.vatsim.net/news/joint-statement-vatsim-founders-board-governors

hmm. Yeah, it makes sense. Ah well. Guess we have to get our rating again on thr still free network of poscon.

 

 

I really hope this is the kind of push vatsim needed to start evolving just a bit.

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Victor Roos

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6 hours ago, ckyliu said:

VATSIM have officially declined the offer from POSCON and given the alleged terms I don't blame them. I wonder if all this was a PR stunt? 

https://www.vatsim.net/news/joint-statement-vatsim-founders-board-governors

Again, this statement is saying the same thing as was said at their conference two years ago.

1 Tech development is the no 1 priority.  Voice CODECs are in development

2 Users are the most important thing

3 We want to remain the biggest and the best.

So again, we have the 'what', but we don't have the 'how' and 'how long'

I love VATSIM and hope they make things work sooner rather than later

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I don't understand the need to "develop" a codec when there's so many available to choose from, for example Opus used in Discord and Speex used in TS3 are both opensource and free, providing clear audio and low latency at relatively modest bitrates. All you need is a host and a signalling mechanism to switch channels. Am I misunderstanding something or are they trying to reinvent the wheel?

Edited by ckyliu

ckyliu, proud supporter of ViaIntercity.com. i5 12400F, 32GB, GTX980, more in "About me" on my profile. 

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I'm not technical enough to fully understand but I imagine the 'codec' per se is the easy bit and I suspect "develop a codec" is actually shorthand for "develop the infrastructure to support a different codec".

The difficulty is in integrating that with VATSIM's existing infrastructure in such a way that one doesn't leave non-FSX/P3D users, for instance, out in the cold (no actively developed client for FS9 -> change the voice codec and FS9 users are plunged in to silence - I don't know what the status of XSB for X-plane is) so some sort of dual-running system is necessary.

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Yeah this BoG screenshot of a chat they had is disconcerting.   Sounds like they have nothing and only replied in that letter to restore confidence.   Not sure who i trust in this weird soap opera going on.  Seems they are reacting now but should have done something long before this was an issue.   

 

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If that screenshot is legitimate then it gives a great insight, I'm sure long term VATSIM members wouldn't be surprised by it though(I'm not), all talk of upgrades and promises have just been that, talk and promises.

I'm actually quite insulted about the carrot reference.

The next few months will be interesting, I suspect POSCON will release a steady pace of development with either videos or pictures to prove they're developing, whilst VATSIM will scramble to do something.

Fun times ahead.

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Hmmm I get the BOGs stance, but I think this has paved the way for dilution of the networks which doesnt benefit anyone. Our hobby doesnt comprise of millions of users, there is no room for further fragmentation. POSCON sound eager to move forward, and I gather will develop at a quicker pace than what Vatsim has accomplished the past 2 years and into the next 12 months.  Perhaps the decision should be more about sustaining and improving live air traffic control for the hobby,  not just for Vatsim or IVAO. This IMHO would have been better accomplished by putting differences aside and merging the now 3 networks to become a very strong modern one. 

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Is it anything that surprising?

Just a thought: an organisation which reacts to VATSIM's "thanks but no thanks" to a ridiculous offer ("you hand everything over to us and then after that we'll think about putting some cash in") by using a media outlet they control as a propaganda vehicle to post screenshots of private conversations whilst throwing their toys out of the pram on their own Facebook page?

Sure sounds like a nice bunch of guys to be involved with...

As I say, I'm far from a defender of the way the VATSIM BoG have operated in the past but it is ultimately an organisation set up so that anybody who wants to get involved in running it can - it's not "owned" by any individual.

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Well, I'm confused by the mixed messages,  but it does seem to align with Simon's view that there is an organisational inertia which doesn't seem like its going to resolve anytime soon.

Clearly, the guys don't have a clue what the next step is.

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VATSIM Boston has been working on AI, this seems like their second work:

https://flai.app/

 

 


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  • FLAI is great (a merger of vPilot AI and BVAI), and is not just for VATSIM.
  • Also you have Accumap v2 finally starting to provide an accurate ATC coverage depiction.
  • vPilot is actually a pretty good client although the lack of support for single monitor use is frustrating; it would be nice if it integrated FPAI from the off. Swift should be great when it's finished, providing a single client for all major platforms and networks that is open source so anyone can update it.

The issue with all the above is they are disparate and not well integrated within the VATSIM website which makes it unnecessarily difficult for newbies - IVAO's integrated approach is much more user friendly. The numerous independent region websites also make things more complicated than they need to be, they should be rolled into the main website. Oh and a central route database would be nice too, especially given they have a huge database of previously filed flights to call upon. Fixing those would lower barriers to entry and attract more people in, without undertaking much work. Oh and ditch VATSIM weather, it's pointless and outdated when you have FSXWX, ActiveSky etc.

Where the real work to be done by VATSIM is its hideously outdated voice communications, awful logged data presentation and low frequency position updates (light state and animations too). An off the shelf codec can be used and then it just a case of convincing vPilot and xSquawkbox to integrate it (or maybe pushing it in to Swift but that would delay things), there's no point holding back purely because this would break the unsupported FS9 clients.

If POSCON can cover all the above then it is probable both VATSIM and IVAO would lose users. Hopefully their PR stunt may at least spur the existing networks in to developing those kinda things.

I seem to remember FPI (FlightProject International) were technically quite far ahead of the major networks, what happened to them? Could POSCON learn any lessons from FPI's collapse?

 

Edited by ckyliu
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ckyliu, proud supporter of ViaIntercity.com. i5 12400F, 32GB, GTX980, more in "About me" on my profile. 

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On 6/19/2018 at 9:46 AM, DaveCT2003 said:

POSCON was created by Andrew Heath, a full time commercial pilot and LONG (very long) time controller for the VATSIM New ARTCC.  OVPA is fully supporting and assisting with some elements on this new network.

Putting it in my words... POSCON is a completely new platform that was created over frustrations of getting VATSIM to move on updating the network. For those in the know, VATSIM has talked about upgrading, and though some work was done (not implemented) in my opinion though intentions of a few were really good it amounted to talk. POSCON took action, and created the new network from scatch.

Knowing some of the people involved, I believe this will be the one dominant network for online flying in a realism based environment.  Not that they launched with that goal, but the new tech is what makes it.

POSCON is not yet ready for prime time, but keep watching!

 

Best wishes.

 

With the recent events that have taken place, I'm withholding judgement on the entire POSCON thing.

I reached out to Andrew, who has ignored my contact request.  I'm sure at this point there isn't a lot he'd be able to tell me anyway, but I wanted to voice my grave concerns about the direction he and his partners seem to be taking POSCON.

 


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I don’t necessarily think that POSCON is doing anything detrimental. Again this all seems to be blowing out of all proportion - as usual. It is interesting, but it’s not impending doom. 

We finally have a new network wanting to take online flying into a more modern era and everyone is losing their marbles.  Why?  It has been suggested that they may offer tiered membership levels with the basic membership being free and subsequent tiers being paid for versions. Fine.    I for one support the initiative if it means better Voice systems, less lag, better supervision and a zero tolerance approach to trolls on the network, VATSIM just doesn’t have their act together

 

 

 

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As a casual ex-VATSIM user, I welcome any new players into the arena. VATSIM is great if there are active controllers for your flightplan. I'll come back to this type of virtual ATC in the future to see how this all shakes out.

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While I do appreciate the work the volunteers do at VATSIM, the network could be managed better I think.  I don't know if it's a money thing or what, but they need to be "modernized"....when I login and join the fun once and a while, I feel like it's 2003 all over again.

The whole thing reminds me of the express "anything free is usually over priced".

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