The Dreamfleet Baron - just not right

[Guest Ricardo Sevarant]

Has anyone else noticed that the lift component, CG, roll/yaw stability, touchdown attitude, etc, are just not right with this add-on? I brought this up a while back, but I thought I'd expand upon the original discussion by illustrating my point with a video of the real aircraft during a landing sequence:http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Bee...Video-2310.htmlNotice in the video linked above that the pilot makes a initial power reduction at about 'over the fence', then reduces power to idle, flares, and holds the aircraft off the runway for a real greaser landing. This is how a real Baron lands (obviously).The DF Baron by contrast will balk unless you hold almost full approach power into the flare and settle the aircraft down onto with runway with use of power. If you were to cut power as seen in this video, you'd end up touching down at almost tail-strike attitude in the DF Baron. In the above video, the aircraft touches down at maybe 5 degrees or so nose up. The DF Baron would want 10-15 degrees minimum to settle onto the runway under the same power usage parameters.This just ain't right :) Honestly, I think the DF Baron has a really messed up CG situation at the root of a lot of it's problems. It acts like it's overloaded and out of CG even at light weights. The only way to make a landing at real-world touchdown attitudes with the DF Baron is to carefully modulate power all the way down until the wheels contact the runway. Again, this is screwed up. Also, the DF Baron pilot position in the virtual cockpit makes it seem like you're sitting out on the left-wing root when you try to roll the aircraft out on the centerline during landing. It's hard to describe , but I bet others experience the same feeling.Perhaps Dreamfleet can comment/retort back on my observation and share some of their insight into this.

[Arklight1 140]

I'm guessing you posted this on the Dreamfleet Forum first, correct (in the interest of common sense)?DF does use real pilots during their beta-testing process, and knowing the quality of Dreamfleet in general I am inclined to go with them on the accuracy of said product.

[boshar 6]

Maybe you should try to make a beter airfile for the Baron or any other and publish it here. That way you will get firsthand knowledge about how hard it is and what compremises you have to make to get a decent airfile that performs well in all the fases of flight. I would then certainly take the time to make some negative comments about it to make you feel realy good about it.Personaly I find that there are 2 airfile designers that I regard as the best, Rob Young and Alex Metzger. Rob is the best when it comes to creating the right feel and Alex is best in making the performance numbers match. Both have to work within the confines of this flightsimulator game. Both will have to put up with people that want to feel good and all knowledgeable by commenting on their hard work.

[MarkW 1,490]

>Maybe you should try to make a beter airfile for the Baron or>any other and publish it here. That way you will get firsthand>knowledge about how hard it is and what compremises you have>to make to get a decent airfile that performs well in all the>fases of flight. I would then certainly take the time to make>some negative comments about it to make you feel realy good>about it.>There seems to be a pervasive attitude among poster lately that basically states you cannot criticize anything unless you have first tried to reprogram the addon yourself. Imagine if this attitude was applied to other goods you buy...problem with your car and the mechanic tells you "before you complain why don't you try building an engine yourself and realize how hard it is". Give me a break. The original poster made some good observations and backed it up with decent evidence. Mark.

[N400QW 205]

OP has not stated his own level of expertise in FDE work and Boshar has a perfect right to challenge OP opinion:-)If OP sets himself as judge and jury on Metzgers work, let him prove his own expertise:-)

[Guest Ricardo Sevarant]

Well, I'll admit I'm not an expert on airfile design myself - this is kinda the reason I purchase (i.e. hard-earned cash) products from those who ARE :) However, if a product is obviously flawed, I believe pointing it out. This is not product bashing in any form.I agree that Rob Young is PHENOMENAL. Anything from RealAir is absolutely amazing; I own all of their aircraft. I also agree that Metzger seems to program in regards to making aircraft fly by the numbers with the highest priority, rather than actual correct flight behavior. This doesn't mean I 'hate' Alex Metzger or have a vendetta against him, I am just pointing out flaws in his commercial work, period. Sometimes it's see so evil, hear no evil, say no evil on here in this regard, and I think that goes against good business practice.

[neil0311 366]

>There seems to be a pervasive attitude among poster lately>that basically states you cannot criticize anything unless you>have first tried to reprogram the addon yourself. Imagine if>this attitude was applied to other goods you buy...problem>with your car and the mechanic tells you "before you complain>why don't you try building an engine yourself and realize how>hard it is". Give me a break. The original poster made some>good observations and backed it up with decent evidence. >>>Mark.Agree Mark. I'm not saying that I agree with the OP's conclusions, since I don't fly the Baron often, but this silly assertion that you can't observe unless you can do is absurd. Your analogy is dead on regarding the car and mechanic. I think the problem stems from 2 things, the ignorance of some users to the limitations inherent in FS, and the defensive posture often taken by developers and their minions. In the developers' defense, they often get bombarded by silly, picky, and unrealistic people because the "left screw is black and it should be chrome". Having said that, they shout down what may be legitimate concerns under the banner of "you don't know how hard this is to do, so you can't tell me". As for Ron's assertion that the poster needs to post his credentials for stating his observation, that's also absurd. Do I need to be a meteorologist to comment when it rains? Do I need to be an electrical engineer or computer scientist to use a computer or know when my computer isn't working correctly? Get real.

[Guest Ricardo Sevarant]

Never said I was an airfile expert there Ron. I simply posted the video to prove my point about the DF Baron in comparison to the real machine. The real Baron flies one way and the DF Baron flies another, point illustrated. If you feel I'm offbase with my observation, I invite you to make a FS2004 video of a DF Baron landing from the same perspective as the real Baron video to refute. There is of course no FS2004 aircraft that are perfect, but there ARE programmers with such expertise that comes awfully close, whilst others are just not as good. If we are paying for a product, I just think it's good practice to point out shortcomings in the ones that need to be improved. No big deal ok? The PMDG 747, the LDS 767, ANYTHING from Rob Young and Realair, are all absolutely amazing with flight dynamics. This proves that truly talented programmers can achieve good things with FS2004, while perhaps other programmers simply lament there are too many limitations and simply expect their customers to be happy with whatever is accomplished.:)Case in point - several FS2004 developers have built and implemented fully functional FMS systems into their avionics suites, replete with complete programming capability, AIRAC integration, ect. It's amazing. Other FS2004 developers haven't managed to get past the stage of using the FMS system to simply program the comm frequencies. Not naming names though are we :( I suppose you could counter by asking me how much I know about the difficulties of programming an FMS system if I'm such an expert........:(

[LAdamson 240]

>The DF Baron by contrast will balk unless you hold almost full>approach power into the flare and settle the aircraft down>onto with runway with use of power. If you were to cut power>as seen in this video, you'd end up touching down at almost>tail-strike attitude in the DF Baron. In the above video,>the aircraft touches down at maybe 5 degrees or so nose up. >The DF Baron would want 10-15 degrees minimum to settle onto>the runway under the same power usage parameters.>>This just ain't right :) >>Honestly, I think the DF Baron has a really messed up CG>situation at the root of a lot of it's problems. It acts>like it's overloaded and out of CG even at light weights. >The only way to make a landing at real-world touchdown>attitudes with the DF Baron is to carefully modulate power all>the way down until the wheels contact the runway. >No time to load FS2004 this morning & fly.....But I just don't remember these type of problems with the DF Baron, as it's something I'd have noticed right off the bat. I'm very aware of the consequense of severe aft CG problems, when trying to save someone elses R/C model, and I certainly don't remember having to use high power settings or serious throttle management for the final approach in the DF Baron. As to the beta testers, there are quite a few pilots, including those who fly twins, as well as a Baron. Something as described, would have easily shown up, before now.Will try flying it later. In the meantime, make sure you don't have previous settings for some other aircraft mixed up with this one.L.Adamson

[N400QW 205]

"As for Ron's assertion that the poster needs to post his credentials for stating his observation, that's also absurd. Do I need to be a meteorologist to comment when it rains? Do I need to be an electrical engineer or computer scientist to use a computer or know when my computer isn't working correctly? Get real."No you do not need to be any of the things you mention in order to comment on them. Just stating that anyone who sets himself up as judge and jury of someones elses work should NOT be surprised if his OWN level of expertise is challenged:-)

[N400QW 205]

"Never said I was an airfile expert there Ron. I simply posted the video to prove my point about the DF Baron in comparison to the real machine. The real Baron flies one way and the DF Baron flies another, point illustrated."Having quite a few hours and landings in a real Baron I am familiar with the landing characteristics of the real thing.:-) Don't have the DF Baron so can't comment there.I am familiar with the challenges of getting the FDE "just right" and hear pretty good things about Metzgers work. Rob Young does all of our FDE work but we admire folks like Steve Small and Alex Metzger as well.

[mnmon 0]

Just a bit of a defense of what Ricardo is saying: I don't have the DF Baron so I can't comment on it. However, almost 90% of my planes get tweaked by me with regard to the FDE. As soon as I discover something that doesn't fit the normal flight parameters I pull out Ron Freimuth's great "bible" of FS flight dynamics and go to work. I have to agree that with exception of PMDG, Rob Young, and I would add, Milton Shupe, the rest I resign myself to doing some fixing. I've been very successful in almost all cases by making adjustments in the cfg file only. If Ron's advice fails me I usually find the answer right here by a search in the aircraft design forum. Ricardo, if you want to try a fix take a look at the MOI's in the cfg file. They are almost always a good place to start. Second, I would look at the parasitic drag and also the lift vector on the flaps. Such tweaking, of course, is not supported by the manufacturer, nor should it be, so always back up your original. Mike

[Geofa 108]

Well I am a Baron B55driver and I have lots of videos showing landings-you can catch the links right now in the "real aviation screen shots" area of this site.I find the Dreamfleet Baron extremely realistic to the real bird-and find nothing "screwed up". As far as judging nose positions,power etc. from a video-that is pretty tough-as it has to do with the viewpoint the person holding the camera is using-and that can vary,as can the landing technique depending on the situation. For instance-from my viewpoint in the cockpit I can not see the nose at all in the plane-the camera person in your video has it quite high...By the way-I in general never "cut" power-but gradually reduce it the whole way into the flare-if you "chop it" it the plane tends to drop somewhat abruptly-after all the engines are producing airflow over the wings....

[LAdamson 240]

>Well I am a Baron B55driver and I have lots of videos>showing landings-you can catch the links right now in the>"real aviation screen shots" area of this site.>>I find the Dreamfleet Baron extremely realistic to the real>bird-and find nothing "screwed up". As far as judging nose>positions,power etc. from a video-that is pretty tough-as it>has to do with the viewpoint the person holding the camera is>using-and that can vary,as can the landing technique depending>on the situation. For instance-from my viewpoint in the>cockpit I can not see the nose at all in the plane-the camera>person in your video has it quite high...>>By the way-I in general never "cut" power-but gradually reduce>it the whole way into the flare-if you "chop it" it the plane>tends to drop somewhat abruptly-after all the engines are>producing airflow over the wings....>And........... that about sums it up! Straight & honest talk from the Baron "driver"! :D L.Adamson

[Arklight1 140]

Rico, your ENTIRE arguement is based around ONE Baron clip? Is it just me, or is that cukoo-cukoo for Coco Puffs. *:-*