Are these aircraft close to the real thing?

[Partially 8]

I hope that a real world airline pilot can answer this question for me.  Here's some background.  I'm retired now after a career in finance, including aircraft from the PSA Bae146 to the more recent BBJ1.  The career included the finance of business jets and various other fixed/rotary wing aircraft.  I began flight sim three years ago and have the FSX and x-plane platforms with some wonderful aircraft from PMDG and other excellent developers.  I'm presently looking hard at the Flight Factor 320 as my birthday present (to myself, of course).  While explaining my desired "gift" to my wife, I found myself saying that these aircraft are "study-level" and close to the real thing in behavior and avionics.  Then I paused.  Is that true?  Would a real world airline pilot have a straight face while telling me "Yes, Pete, these virtual aircraft are as close to the real thing as you can get without sitting in a $3 million dollar simulator".  And yep, I've financed those too.  I know this is a long-winded question, but can some pilots tell me these study-level aircraft are the real deal?  I truly apologize if this subject has been covered before.  Any response would be much appreciated.

Pete

[jon b 2,041]

Hi Pete,

It doesn’t have to be just the big airliners of course, the general aviation sims now fully model just about everything from the real counterparts.

To answer your question though, yes, modern study sims require you to do just about everything you would do on a real world aircraft and the procedures followed like for like. The real world throws in things that provide more of a challenge, normally related to the human element of the operation , but within the confines of sat in front a monitor manipulating things with a mouse the experience is quite authentic.

Jon

 

[Wobbie 938]

Just remember, it's still an entertainment/gaming platform, that simulates a simulator, as 'authentic' as it can be, on a monitor or 2, maybe 3, & controls that are obviously limited as far as travel, etc. Not all that authentic also if not on a motion platform, but it can be very immersive.

As Jon says, it most certainly also applies with the wonderful GA & older planes we 'fly'.

 

Regards,

Robin

[Paraffin 2,197]

The two major missing elements with home simulators are the motion feel, and the feedback you get from the flight controls. In a GA plane you can feel things like vibration indicating a developing stall, or the plane feeling "heavy" from icing. You'd feel the sudden change in rudder pressure from an engine failure in a twin. You'd feel the beginning of vortex ring state developing from shudder in the rotor system of a helicopter, and so on.

There isn't as much feedback in a modern airliner because the controls are modulated through software, but feedback is still important for having a feel for the flight dynamics. We don't get any of that with the usual consumer yokes/joysticks and pedals, and it's probably more important than the full-motion experience.

There have been occasional attempts at marketing affordable, consumer-grade force-feedback flight controls, but they never caught on, except for a few die-hard combat sim enthusiasts still using old Microsoft FF sticks.

Maybe one day... I'm still hoping to see some decent FF controls along with full integration in the sim before I'm too old to fly in this hobby!

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Wobbie said:

that simulates a simulator

That's a bit of an odd thing to say and I don't agree with this. Current flightsims simulate flight, period. Not as complete as a "$3 million dollar simulator" will but still, current study level planes are a simulation of the real deal and not a simulation of a simulation.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

7 hours ago, J van E said:

That's a bit of an odd thing to say and I don't agree with this. Current flightsims simulate flight, period. Not as complete as a "$3 million dollar simulator" will but still, current study level planes are a simulation of the real deal and not a simulation of a simulation.

My CFI, when I took my light sport lessons, was impressed with my use of flightsim, knowing the avionics, the transponder, the radio, the steam gauges (back then).  On first flight he let me take off, I was nervous on the landing because I was feeling forces on the aircraft you do not feel in simulators, from chop and crosswinds, but he let me land and just kept his hand on the throttle to bring us down.  But he told me, most importantly, that sim pilots coming in to training are too focused on the instruments, and not focused enough on what one should be doing outside the aircraft, pilotage, looking for traffic, always being ready for an engine out situation so knowing where the airfields and straight roads, dirt or otherwise were.

It took me many lessons and finally a flight with a friend in a Luscombe until I felt I was a flyer, but I had to hold short of completing my license, as my wife and I were interested in buying a new home, the neighborhood where we lived had fallen on bad times, with drug houses and houses with illegal immigrants, so we moved away from all that to a master planned community out to the west of Luke Air Force Base, which was a world away from the city strife.

So for me flying is about the environment, all the bells and whistles, but mainly being able to see where I am going, from point A to point B, and enjoying getting above all the congestion of the world below.  In sims I am the same, and for realism I crank up the winds and chop, to make landings exciting (takeoffs are such a breeze).

I guess we call it immersion, and I try "immerse" as much as I can.....

John

 

[Wobbie 938]

We have built 2x simulators, an Avro Shackleton & an AerMacci MB326, a twin seater trainer, used here in South Africa, known as an Impala, using original seats and controls. When we get 'real' pilots flying them, and coming to land, they actually 'bump' themselves in the seats, anticipating a touchdown, such is the immersion. 

And we are using FS2004 on 4-5 year old PC's. 2x screens with the Impala, and a screen and a projector with the Shack.

Ok, so it's a game that simulates a simulator, simulating flight & flying... Nothing wrong with that at all. 

[Nickbe 401]

18 hours ago, Paraffin said:

The two major missing elements with home simulators are the motion feel, and the feedback you get from the flight controls. In a GA plane you can feel things like vibration indicating a developing stall, or the plane feeling "heavy" from icing. You'd feel the sudden change in rudder pressure from an engine failure in a twin. You'd feel the beginning of vortex ring state developing from shudder in the rotor system of a helicopter, and so on.

There isn't as much feedback in a modern airliner because the controls are modulated through software, but feedback is still important for having a feel for the flight dynamics. We don't get any of that with the usual consumer yokes/joysticks and pedals, and it's probably more important than the full-motion experience.

There have been occasional attempts at marketing affordable, consumer-grade force-feedback flight controls, but they never caught on, except for a few die-hard combat sim enthusiasts still using old Microsoft FF sticks.

Maybe one day... I'm still hoping to see some decent FF controls along with full integration in the sim before I'm too old to fly in this hobby! 

Hi All!

Forgive me for my poor English:) but Your message seemed interesting to me to draw attention to the feedback systems.

Some time ago, we were inside the Ezdok Software talked on the theme of the moving platform for flight simulation in the environment of Prepare3D4.

You've probably heard of the Ezdok Camera program that simulates various weather-dependent shaking effects during flight, the effect of flaps, landing gear, angle of attack, spoilers,  the effect of engine,  and more.

The internal structure of the effects engine of our program is ideal for building a the moving platform system for the simulator. We have studied the demand for such solutions within our community, but we have not found any interesting responses to the current day. The question is about the cost of such the moving platform, it would be very expensive for a home hobby.

But we do not leave hope that any of the manufacturers of mechanics for the moving platform will be interested in such an opportunity and we will be able to jointly implement an affordable and interesting solution. We are ready for contacts.

Ezdok Software Team.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Nickbe

[Wobbie 938]

6 hours ago, Wobbie said:

We have built 2x simulators, an Avro Shackleton & an AerMacci MB326, a twin seater trainer, used here in South Africa, known as an Impala, using original seats and controls. When we get 'real' pilots flying them, and coming to land, they actually 'bump' themselves in the seats, anticipating a touchdown, such is the immersion. 

And we are using FS2004 on 4-5 year old PC's. 2x screens with the Impala, and a screen and a projector with the Shack.

Ok, so it's a game that simulates a simulator, simulating flight & flying... Nothing wrong with that at all. 

I forgot to add that we had no moving platforms at all, such was the immersion factor. A decent flight model and scenery, we use freeware Aeroworx scenery, is all it takes. 

[TuFun 426]

On 7/14/2018 at 12:41 AM, Wobbie said:

We have built 2x simulators, an Avro Shackleton & an AerMacci MB326, a twin seater trainer, used here in South Africa, known as an Impala, using original seats and controls. When we get 'real' pilots flying them, and coming to land, they actually 'bump' themselves in the seats, anticipating a touchdown, such is the immersion. 

 

I know that feeling... got a chance to fly a USAF F-4C simulator (1970's), and when I pulled on the stick I felt I was sinking in the seat as if g-forces were in affect, although there was no motion.  My mind simulated that effect!

[Wobbie 938]

Just goes to show that you do not need the latest sim or fancy hardware to get a total immersion result.

In actual fact, we are using 5 year old PC's, on board graphics, Celeron, (I think) & getting 50+ fps!

4x screens for the MB326, (2x back seater, scenery & panel, a large 42' on the nose for scenery, & a smaller screen for the panel in front.)

1x Projector for the Shack (scenery) & a LCD used as a panel)