You Don't See in 4K

[HiFlyer 9,343]

27 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

On my 65" I sit about 20-24 inches from the screen.

Somehow I don't think you are the average user in this instance......

If I ever get a 65' anything, its going in the living room. (but since I don't watch tv, that will never happen)

[Guest]

While we are at it... two questions I have about 4K monitors:

1. should I get a 'dedicated' PC 4K monitor or would a 4K TV do too...?

2. what size will make 4K useful (since I just read here that a 27" 4K monitor is useless)? Or in other words: what is the minimum size to get and what is the optimal size to get (for flight sim use, so for use at a close distance)?

[Murmur 3,941]

13 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

one seamless large canvas that could cover an entire wall or wrap around a center point (edit: this is why I think VR days are numbered when playing the long game) ...

Hmmm... I have a different opinion on that. I feel the immersion factor of a VR headset would be higher than even a 180 wrap-around monitor, for several reasons. Add to this the fact that a wrap around setup would reasonably remain one/two orders of magnitude more expensive than a VR headset. Moreover, the number of pixels and hence the hardware/bandwidth requirements for the wrap around setup would be incomparably higher. As well as the room space requirements.

The only downsides I see for VR headsets (compared to wrap around monitors) are the comfort during long-sessions and the angular pixel resolution, but these seems to be technological factors that will be improved steadily in the near future (also, any improvement in dot-per-inches would equally benefit VR headsets and monitors). On the other hand, all the downsides of the wrap-around monitor setup will remain, whatever the technological advances may be.

I don't see large monitors replacing VR headsets for the specific uses the latters have been designed for.

 

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

I also don't see large monitors as a long-term solution, even when paired with TrackIR.  But VR headsets have only marginally improved in the past few years for the reasons given in both this thread and in respected expert critiques. My guess is that holographic technology will eventually replace both the monitor and the VR headset.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jabloomf1230 said:

My guess is that holographic technology will eventually replace both the monitor and the VR headset.

Probably correct Jay, but not in my life time.  I was proposing a possible future that is viable within my lifetime (knock on wood).

 

3 hours ago, Murmur said:

The only downsides I see for VR headsets (compared to wrap around monitors) are the comfort during long-sessions

And the inability to interact with anything that isn't in the virtual world ... for example a cup of coffee or my separate PC with LittleNavMap and/or Weather radar or just looking at physical checklist or using my iPad (VAInterface) for FMC ... and other touchy/feelies that might be coming down the pike in the near future.  I think VR sales are starting to see saturation ... there have been some wild speculation of VR growth but the real units shipped numbers from 2016 to 2017 are below expectations. 

Cheers, Rob.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

And the inability to interact with anything that isn't in the virtual world ... for example a cup of coffee or my separate PC with LittleNavMap and/or Weather radar or just looking at physical checklist or using my iPad (VAInterface) for FMC ..

Which is one of the main reasons I prefer a monitor. It may be very realistic but when I used VR I felt closed into a box somehow and disconnected from the real world too much. I like to check out my printed checklists, look for something on the internet, post something on this forum, drink something, talk to my wife whenever she walks by, even read a book during a long cruise... And whenever I stopped using VR I sort of had to adjust myself to real life again. Now this may be very personal, maybe VR simply doesn't suit me (the fact that it seemed to give me attacks of migraine more often also points to that: I do wonder if the future will show some unexpected physical side effects for its users), but well, for me a monitor simply works better. A lot better. I like to know where I really am, even when I am pretending to fly over Miami in a Q400. 😉

Apart from that I really absolutely prefer the sharp images I get on a screen. This may of course change in the (far away) future, when VR gets better screens, but then the above remains valid for me. (And I also don't have to buy a new PC to feed those two 8K VR screens. 😎) Add to that the discomfort I get from sessions longer than half an hour already (the pressure on my cheeks, my head probably is shaped oddly, and the sweat) and well... monitor all the way for now! 😉

As I said: this is very personal. I am not saying a monitor is better, period. VR offers some truly amazing things. But I prefer a monitor. (And monitors are here to stay for quite some time too: I don't see VR replacing screens completely anytime soon.)

[sbclark 55]

Rob,

I pretty much fly VR most of the time.

A good mechanism for interacting would be Voice Attack (VA), in addition to a HOTAS, which I use when flying in VR. Using VA, create audible check lists that could be stepped through once a check list is started. For example:

Pilot - "Check List Cessna 182"

VA - Starting Check List.

Pilot - "Next"

VA - "Check all switch positions and then turn on Battery"

Pilot - "Next"

VA - "Prime engine 3 times"

Note - From this short, made up off the top of my head, you can get the drift..................

Also, if the vendors would mount a camera on the front of headsets, that could be turned on or off when needed to view other monitors, or documents, or interact using a keyboard on a second PC, this would go a long ways towards addressing our needs.. I'm surprised Vive or Oculus have not considered this feature on their next version, or maybe they will?

I'm looking forward to the new PMDG 747-8 that will include an EFB. This will permit the viewing of Navigraph charts while under the headset, and I assume you could also view PDF files of self-created check lists or other documentation. These features are supposed to be migrated to the other aircraft such as the PMDG 737 and 777. So this will address my needs for airliners I fly.

In my opinion, the biggest objection to VR currently, from people I have demoed this technology to, is the resolution.

Bill Clark

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

2 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Probably correct Jay, but not in my life time.  I was proposing a possible future that is viable within my lifetime (knock on wood).

I'm sure how to gauge that timeframe. 😉 The problem is that all consumer intermediate technologies (VR headsets, 3D TVs, etc.) have such obvious limitations, I can't accept that all the world's myriad of high tech companies aren't developing something better. If the time frame is just the next few years, then a 4K monitor or TV is probably the best alternative.

[Bobsk8 12,584]

I have to use 4K monitors at work, testing high end video components. I hate them with a passion. When you are sitting close to them, they are a PIA. Give me at most a 2560  x 1600 max display at close range, and that is enough definition for me. We just got some 8 K monitors in and a leave them under the bench. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Bobsk8

[Guest]

To be clear, I'm not against VR at all, it's just not for me and how I like to interact with my simulator.  But VR has lots of practical use outside of gaming/flight simulation and is a very effective training tool ... I'm certain VR resolution will increase over time and the GPU processing needed to support that resolution.  VR has made it's market space and "I think" it's here to stay.

Cheers, Rob.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

We just got some 8 K monitors in and a leave them under the bench.

Send them to me ... unless they are 32"

Cheers, Rob.

[Bobsk8 12,584]

3 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Send them to me ... unless they are 32"

Cheers, Rob.

We need them for testing FO cables. We have a couple of customers  that are using them.so we have to make sure our products work.  About as useful as bi-focals for a flea. 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Bobsk8

[Guest]

20 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

Somehow I don't think you are the average user in this instance...

If you can define the "average" flight sim user (with supporting evidence), then I'll be able to tell you if I'm within that definition or not 🙂

Cheers, Rob.

 

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

7 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

If you can define the "average" flight sim user (with supporting evidence), then I'll be able to tell you if I'm within that definition or not 🙂

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

My friend, you are definitely not average!

How are you Rob!  Look for an email from me tomorrow on testing FS Reborn AI Lights Pro.

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

About as useful as bi-focals for a flea.

If 32" agree, but if 50" or higher they would be very useful for me.

They just opened a new Apple Store close to us in Walnut Creek, 22 ft x 9 ft 6K resolution ($1.5M) ... at least I know why my iMac and iPhone X were so expensive ... but those funky square cube chairs leaves much to be desired in the area of comfort.

Cheers, Rob.