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windshearDK

Mild complaint about the P3D platform

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3 hours ago, WarpD said:

Feel free to take on Jeppeson and Lufthansa to prove me wrong. 🙂 They are the two global providers of that data in a raw format and they indeed protect it.  Last I checked... no one really wanted to spend the money to test your theory.

Exactly as James says above: it is Jeppesen/Lido's presentation of the data which is copyrighted, not the data itself. They actually provide the data in anything but a "raw" format in the true sense of the word - the whole point of their existence is to editorialise and present the generally not-very-pilot/cockpit-friendly raw data provided by national ANSPs in a manner that is the most user-friendly for their customers. So FMC navigation databases will have custom waypoints and procedures added at the behest of customers, some data deemed extraneous or surplus to requirements will be removed etc. Likewise the chart design and presentation is what they are protecting, not the details of the navaids shown.

The Michelin Guide analogy is a good one, or perhaps a dictionary: one can't copyright all the words in the language, but one can copyright the work done to compile and present a selection of them in a user-friendly/aesthetically pleasing way.

Edited by skelsey
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16 hours ago, honanhal said:

I think you’re confusing the issue here. They are doing a lot more than providing that data in a “raw format.” We’re roughly talking about the difference between a phone book (that includes restaurants’ phone numbers) and the Michelin guide, that also happens to include those numbers. Yes, some of the raw data is the same. No, just because one product doesn’t get copyright protection doesn’t mean the other one (that adds a lot more value) doesn’t.

Copyright law is complex, and doesn’t always make intuitive sense, but it would be bizarre if basic info about navigation aids was under copyright. They’re a matter of public safety. It would be like making road location information a trade secret. What’s the compelling public interest in that?

James

Maps are indeed protected by copyright despite the fact that the roads depicted are public knowledge.

As for the raw data being a presentation... the reality is that the format is owned by ARINC, the content is created by Jeppesen/Lufthansa.  They compile the raw data from sources around the world.  It is copyrightable and thus my original statement regarding the fact that still stands.  When Microsoft created the original data for FS and compiled it into the BGLs that the sim uses, they purchased a license to use the data from a company, most likely Jeppesen.  Purchasing said data would typically come with a license that expects you to protect the content of said data as you use it.  If the data for all of this was as what was originally suggested, editable, then it would probably violate any expectations of data protection.

Edited by WarpD

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He's not suggesting otherwise. He's merely pointing out that the raw data isn't a "creative work" and therefore isn't protected.

Cheers!

Luke

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Luke Kolin

I make simFDR, the most advanced flight data recorder for FSX, Prepar3D and X-Plane.

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34 minutes ago, WarpD said:

As for the raw data being a presentation... the reality is that the format is owned by ARINC, the content is created by Jeppesen/Lufthansa.  They compile the raw data from sources around the world.

The ATL VOR is located at 33.629 N, 84.435 W and has a frequency of 116.9. Who owns that data? Certainly not Jeppesen. As you describe, they merely compile the data from different sources, which is exactly what Feist was referring to. Why do you feel it doesn't apply?

I completely agree that visual presentations of the raw data (like a map) are unique creative works and copyrightable.

36 minutes ago, WarpD said:

Purchasing said data would typically come with a license that expects you to protect the content of said data as you use it.  If the data for all of this was as what was originally suggested, editable, then it would probably violate any expectations of data protection.

You can have no expectations of data privacy for data you do not own. The data is, by the way, completely editable and decompilable - we've been able to do so at least since FS2000 if not before since the format is well-documented. Most likely they paid for someone to aggregate the data, which is entirely plausible and legitimate. That's essentially what we pay Navigraph for - they don't own the data itself, we're just paying them to aggregate it and transform it into an easily usable format.

Cheers!

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Luke Kolin

I make simFDR, the most advanced flight data recorder for FSX, Prepar3D and X-Plane.

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IMHO I think the only way to have a platform that is smooth and has all the features simmers want is to break backwards compatibility. The reality is LM has tried their best to improve on an old platform, as many have pointed out, with their hands tied. Time and time again I see developers put out pictures of their future releases and I’ll always see about 10 out of 50 posts asking if it’ll be for fs9 and more recently FSX. We can’t make the next big leap if the developers have to build a state of the art house with 1850’s era water pump and an outhouse because the owners are afraid of running water. It’s not screwing the customers by strictly doing addons for 64bit P3Dv4. If you refuse to leave fs9 or fsx that’s fine. But demanding the newest technology on what could be considered ancient platforms is ridiculous. 

I loved when a group of developers announced that all future products would only be 64bit. That’s a positive step forward that hopefully other developers will follow. LM and the top addon developers should really work side by side on the next version. I was intimidated by windows 10. But after seeing the path was going towards that in development I made the move and upgraded. Man best decision I made. Blows 7 out of the water. Best part is I did a major upgrade of the MOBO and CPU and I did not have to do anything other then turning on the power and windows 10 did everything else after seeing the new hardware installed. I didn’t lose anything. 

Edited by Shylock_35
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