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williebarry1

LatinVFR Baltimore Terrain/ Ground Issue

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Thanks so much for the comments.

In reality as others have said KBWI is an airport with a lot of elevation fluctuations. FS in 99% of the airports out there everything is set flat. We tried to do our best here changing it to be more realistic, despite the limitation of having the taxiways/aprons/runways to be flat we tried our best here to replicate the elevation.

Had it not been for certain issues such as AI traffic and certain addons we would have done sloped surfaces everywhere.

Thankfully the terrain data available was good enough to make this possible, so we expect whenever is available to do airports this way, specially the ones that are not known to be flat, such as this one. 

Edited by DanMorera
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I just bought LatinVFR KBWI version 1.1  two days ago (September 3, 2018) and I am having the bumps in the taxiway issue. My mesh is and has always been set at 1m because I have a fast system and I have Pilot's FS Global Ultimate Next Generation mesh installed.  The bumps are right on the centerline of taxiways N and S close to gate D34.  When I VERY slowly run into them my entire plane jumps as if I just hit a boulder at 50mph. The first time I tried to exit the runway after landing I must have hit one of these and it ended my flight right then and there. I saw some silly graphics of stylized stars exploding on a brownish background and could never recover to any normal view. It just kept bouncing around and displaying stars. I've only landed twice. This makes it pretty clear to me that this reaction to these boulders is intentional, and very stupid IMO.  The second time I landed was at night and this time I saw the bumps clearly with my taxi lights on and it was impossible to steer around them. I clearly have the latest version from SimMarket. I am running P3D v4.3 and otherwise have absolutely no issues with it. I am about to begin a scenario on the ground at KBWI so I can finally see the scenery I paid for. It was cool how I could briefly see there was a serious gully between the taxiways and not just a flat surface like every other airport.

I read some posts on another site. saying that you cannot use 1m mesh setting or else you get these insane.That's ridiculous. I paid a lot of money to have the Pilot's mesh, which is 1m in North America. I then reduced the mesh setting to 2m and the crazy bumps were gone. I am not going to turn down my mesh settings for one airport. I just tested it with my usual 1m mesh setting and these "explosive boulders" ALL OVER the taxiways and runways.  The scenery is useless with mesh at the normal setting for those with Pilot's mesh.

It is my understanding that P3D will always use the highest resolution mesh available for any given spot regardless of what order it is placed in the scenery. Knowing this I wonder if LatinVFR could have chosen to make this airport at 1m mesh or else ensured the elevation of KBWI was set a few feet higher to avoid other mesh sticking through the taxiways and runways. Or, I wonder if there is any way using the latest SDK to force the use of their 2m mesh automatically just for this airport.  I would really like to keep it, but I will not start doing like the old days where you have to set different settings for different flights. I never could remember all the nuances and set them correctly (in advance) in the past anyway. Very sad, because not even having looked at the terminals and buildings yet I am impressed with the terrain around the airport and how it's not flat. I've been flying simulators since 1980 and I have never heard of a more ridiculous thing (speaking especially of the silly graphics when you run over the bumps).  BTW, some of these bumps are almost completely imperceptible and yet the aircraft reacts like it just hit an explosive device. I'd swear I hit one that I could not find visually.

With sadness I will be returning it tomorrow. Unbelievable that they released a product that was buggy like this.  I will most certainly buy this again when the issue is fixed. Being one of my local airports that I regularly fly out of I really wanted it.

 

Edited to Add:
I will try to post a couple of screenshots for those who have not seen this.  Also, I know how to properly order my scenery and all my airports are at the top of the list.  I have nearly 500 entries in my scenery, not including many XML add-ons. I did have another freeware KBWI installed last week, but it was entirely in its own directory outside of P3D and has been removed and all scenery databases regenerated.

 

Here are a few screenshots:

In this first one you can see a bunch. Even that little flat spot on the ground a few feet behind my left wing will be a beast to get over.
2018-9-5_18-49-58-252.jpg

Here is the silly graphic you get when you hit one of these "bumps". From inside the aircraft you can't see anything else. I just figured out how to get above it and see it more clearly.
2018-9-5_19-11-55-776.jpg

 

Here is a shot with two of them right on the runway centerline.

2018-9-5_19-19-24-949.jpg

Edited by ArJunaBug

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Hi, I just replied to you via email, this is my explanation:

 

In all honesty the difference between 1 and 2 mesh in that setting is negligible, hardly noticed in any significant form or way.
 
In fact, the most detailed terrain mesh available in the market is a 5 meter mesh, which we have included in the scenery, so its extremely difficult you can take advantage of the 2meter mesh even in any case because for now only 5 meters is what there is out there. Other companies such as ORBX have a 10 meter mesh in their terrain products.
 
The reason you have that issue is because the 3d mesh we did acts as a 3d object, and sits atop a real terrain mesh which causes those issues.
 
The only way it could work for you is if you install the FSX version in p3dv4. The FSX version does not contain the 3d mesh. You let us know.
 
Ricardo
Edited by DanMorera

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Here are a few examples that a 2 meter resolution setting vs a 1 meter resolution setting in P3D on a highly detailed 5 meter mesh results in insignificant differences between them.  Though I must admit one really wishes to have a lot of detail, the difference as I said is negligible .

 

qDqZrDO.jpg

 

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7KZFLP2.jpg

 

As I said before, this is the most highly detailed mesh available, so detailed that the ramps on a highway are flattened to be exact as in real life. As you can see with 2meters setting is mostly identical to 1meters setting. These are pictures of our KBWI scenery.

Edited by DanMorera

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4 minutes ago, LVFRicardo said:

Hi, I just replied to you via email, this is my explanation:

 

In all honesty the difference between 1 and 2 mesh in that setting is negligible, hardly noticed in any significant form or way.
 
In fact, the most detailed terrain mesh available in the market is a 5 meter mesh, which we have included in the scenery, so its extremely difficult you can take advantage of the 2meter mesh even in any case because for now only 5 meters is what there is out there. Other companies such as ORBX have a 10 meter mesh in their terrain products.
 
The reason you have that issue is because the 3d mesh we did acts as a 3d object, and sits atop a real terrain mesh which causes those issues.
 
The only way it could work for you is if you install the FSX version in p3dv4. The FSX version does not contain the 3d mesh. You let us know.
 
Ricardo

Would it be possible for you to recompile with the mesh as a separate file so I can just delete it?  I'd really wanted to have my 4 local airports that I have flown out of for decades. One of them I had to make myself. KBWI rounded out my collection of these 4.

While you are correct that the difference between 1m and 2m is extremely difficult to see, I don't like the idea of reducing my settings for one airport.  I tried taking screenshots of Mt. Rainier in both 1m and 2m settings (the mesh is 1m there) and while I could tell the difference it was almost imperceptible.  BTW, I own most ORBX products and their mesh is 9m at best, which is why they tell you to set it at 5m. That said, adding the FS Global Ultimate NG greatly improved their product.  I love flying GA around the American west, especially in the mountains from the Sierras to the Rockies, all the way to Alaska.

Thinking again, I guess I don't understand how the FSX version will change anything, Since I am pretty sure that P3D will use the best mesh available regardless of the order any scenery which includes mesh is placed. I expect that the spots poking through KBWI are my Pilot's mesh accuracies not playing nice with the airport. Am I wrong?

Also, why have the silly reaction to the terrain with all the stars and aircraft bouncing and  damned near flipping over for hitting in some cases a flat, flush spot of terrain barely coming through the tarmac? I usually fly with collisions turned off, simply because I know if I screwed up and I can't stand the dumb reaction P3D has to a crash, causing you to reset everything. Why does KBWI force this insane and over the top collision with terrain? I've never seen anything like this before. Separating that feature out and making it an optional "feature" might make it usable for me too. As far as I can tell, so far I only see one rather large "boulder" on the centerline of a runway. The majority are on the sides of runways or on or near the taxiways.If the aircraft could react as normal in P3D I could maybe work with it.

I just think there has to be a better solution than forcing the mesh quality downward.

I don't know if you personally are the developer, but I'll ask you, could this not have been made to work by creating the airport on a 1m mesh in the first place? or by ensuring the mesh you used was a tad higher than other mesh products. I don't quite understand the technique used. I would be most willing to hang on to the product for now if I knew it was to be fixed in an update very soon.

It would be nice if there was some way to add exclusions to mesh data. Maybe developers could suggest this to LM.

Anyway, thanks for your replies. I will consider this some more. As I said, I really don't like the idea of turning down the quality when  I spent so much money trying to get it very high. Between software and hardware for P3D I have sunk at least $6K US, and that's with a home built PC and only counting the stuff that is 100% dedicated to P3D. Actually, it's higher than that.

I'm in a situation which doesn't give me much time to wait for a fix. I'll just say I won't be flying sims for too much longer.

I do want to point out that I am very impressed with the 3D terrain within the airport. I give huge props to you if you did that. it's very cool.

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Hi, the reality is you are not losing any quality, because there isn't any visual impact differences between 1 or 2 meters setting.

The reason KBWI has been successful is that we invested hundreds of hours doing a customized terrain mesh made by hand. Yes made by hand, whilst the other terrain mesh are just quite simple to compile and do, we spent months working on it so that the terrain fluctuations in KBWI would represent the real life. The way the FS code works we couldn't do it with a normal terrain mesh for many many reasons.

Customers have enjoyed and liked so much the way we did KBWI that we are planning future products doing these same sort of terrain mesh.

We respect every customer's right to chose their own settings, but our request is not uncommon with that from other developers, many of which in the product manuals ask a certain setting to be present in your sim so certain addons work correctly. I could mention weather addons, aircraft addons, and scenery addons.

We would love for you to fully enjoy our scenery but if you would like your terrain mesh setting to be 1 meters, I would recommend you use the FSX airport which does not use the 3d mesh we did, but a flat airport with a normal terrain mesh. Let us know via email if you like that option so that I can explain how to do this.

regards,

RIcardo

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6 minutes ago, LVFRicardo said:

Here are a few examples that a 2 meter resolution setting vs a 1 meter resolution setting in P3D on a highly detailed 5 meter mesh results in insignificant differences between them.  Though I must admit one really wishes to have a lot of detail, the difference as I said is negligible .

As I said before, this is the most highly detailed mesh available, so detailed that the ramps on a highway are flattened to be exact as in real life. As you can see with 2meters setting is mostly identical to 1meters setting. These are pictures of our KBWI scenery.

Except that I have global mesh that is 1m in many areas. I understand that changing mesh setting will not magically make any mesh more detailed. You are asking me to cut in half my mesh resolution. While in most situations it will not be a big deal, it just seems wrong. Especially when I believe it was probably not necessary to have done it that way. That Pilot's Mesh is not an inexpensive product. I don't understand how a new scenery would not account for that.

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10 minutes ago, ArJunaBug said:

Thinking again, I guess I don't understand how the FSX version will change anything, Since I am pretty sure that P3D will use the best mesh available regardless of the order any scenery which includes mesh is placed. I expect that the spots poking through KBWI are my Pilot's mesh accuracies not playing nice with the airport. Am I wrong?

 

Hi, not at all, the spots poking is a fault with FS.

The fault lies in the following.

We flattened out the taxiways, aprons and runways so that your aircraft doesn't sink. By doing that flatten the edge of that flatten pokes out because is a thin flatten and not a flatten that covers the entire airport. So because these thin flattens just cover a small portion of the surfaces they tend to stick out and this is what happens.

We were faced with either removing the 3d mesh we did or asking customers to reduce their mesh settings.

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13 minutes ago, LVFRicardo said:

Hi, the reality is you are not losing any quality, because there isn't any visual impact differences between 1 or 2 meters setting.

The reason KBWI has been successful is that we invested hundreds of hours doing a customized terrain mesh made by hand. Yes made by hand, whilst the other terrain mesh are just quite simple to compile and do, we spent months working on it so that the terrain fluctuations in KBWI would represent the real life. The way the FS code works we couldn't do it with a normal terrain mesh for many many reasons.

Customers have enjoyed and liked so much the way we did KBWI that we are planning future products doing these same sort of terrain mesh.

We respect every customer's right to chose their own settings, but our request is not uncommon with that from other developers, many of which in the product manuals ask a certain setting to be present in your sim so certain addons work correctly. I could mention weather addons, aircraft addons, and scenery addons.

We would love for you to fully enjoy our scenery but if you would like your terrain mesh setting to be 1 meters, I would recommend you use the FSX airport which does not use the 3d mesh we did, but a flat airport with a normal terrain mesh. Let us know via email if you like that option so that I can explain how to do this.

regards,

RIcardo

What about the possibility of eliminating the funky stars and bucking bronco reaction the plane has to the terrain. I could live with it if it that were not a problem. The real issue for me is not that there are a few  bumps on the ground, it's that even just grazing one at low speed, even one that is flat and flush with the ground causes damage and effectively ends the flight. This happens even with the aircraft crash detection and with damage turned off in P3D.

Edited by ArJunaBug

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10 minutes ago, ArJunaBug said:

Except that I have global mesh that is 1m in many areas. I understand that changing mesh setting will not magically make any mesh more detailed. You are asking me to cut in half my mesh resolution. While in most situations it will not be a big deal, it just seems wrong. Especially when I believe it was probably not necessary to have done it that way. That Pilot's Mesh is not an inexpensive product. I don't understand how a new scenery would not account for that.

Hi, I have a hard time believing anyone managed to get 1 meter mesh on a global scale, much less include it into a global package. But if they did good for them, and I understand you need your 1 meter mesh and I respect that.  Let me know via email if you wish to know the instructions on how to load KBWI for FSX in your system.

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9 hours ago, LVFRicardo said:

Hi, I have a hard time believing anyone managed to get 1 meter mesh on a global scale, much less include it into a global package. But if they did good for them, and I understand you need your 1 meter mesh and I respect that.  Let me know via email if you wish to know the instructions on how to load KBWI for FSX in your system.

Hi Ricardo - Are you saying that if 2m or greater mesh is used we should not have these issues?  I am having similar problems where I hit an invisible crater and my airplane goes up in a cloud of dust and sparks.  I see it mostly around the GA apron and taxiways.  I use 2m mesh setting in P3D but this still occurs and I have no other addon mesh. Thanks!


Eric

i9-12900k, RTX 3080ti FTW, 32GB ddr5 5600 RAM, 2TB 980 Pro SSD, H100i AIO, Samsung CRG90 49", Win 11

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Just now, Flic1 said:

Hi Ricardo - Are you saying that if 2m or greater mesh is used we should not have these issues?  I am having similar problems where I hit an invisible crater and my airplane goes up in a cloud of dust and sparks.  I see it mostly around the GA apron and taxiways.  I use 2m mesh setting in P3D but this still occurs and I have no other addon mesh. Thanks!

Hi, this is different, the reason we ask 2m is because certain spikes of terrain stick out in the surfaces and also create a bumpy problem.

The issue you mention will be fixed in an upcoming update of KBWI.

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Good morning Ricardo,

I set my mesh to 2m this morning and spent some time looking around KBWI. It looks really cool with the 3D terrain around the airport. I came here to report that I again ran into an invisible something on a runway that caused my aircraft to momentarily stand up on its wingtip and slam back to the ground.  I have all collision detection off and damage turned off and yet this airport can still damage my plane.  I'd be willing to live with the 2m setting if the next version could have an option to turn off the collisions and strange stars, dust, and whirlwind that consumes the aircraft for no good reason.

Again, the work you did making that 3D terrain in the airport is something I'd like to see more of. I hope the next products could work at the higher 1m mesh setting.

It also appears my information may be wrong about P3D using the highest mesh available regardless of position in the scenery files. I don't remember where I read that, but it was not an official source.  I am going to ping LM to try and get a clear answer on this question. If I get a response I will post it back here. I played around with deleting the KBWImesh.bgl file and what I then saw was many more, larger and more defined bumps ALL OVER the airport, implying in my mind that the KBWI mesh was overriding my FSGU-NG mesh.

How soon will the next version be available Ricardo? and is there any possibility of making the stars and collisions optional?

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16 minutes ago, ArJunaBug said:

Good morning Ricardo,

I set my mesh to 2m this morning and spent some time looking around KBWI. It looks really cool with the 3D terrain around the airport. I came here to report that I again ran into an invisible something on a runway that caused my aircraft to momentarily stand up on its wingtip and slam back to the ground.  I have all collision detection off and damage turned off and yet this airport can still damage my plane.  I'd be willing to live with the 2m setting if the next version could have an option to turn off the collisions and strange stars, dust, and whirlwind that consumes the aircraft for no good reason.

Again, the work you did making that 3D terrain in the airport is something I'd like to see more of. I hope the next products could work at the higher 1m mesh setting.

It also appears my information may be wrong about P3D using the highest mesh available regardless of position in the scenery files. I don't remember where I read that, but it was not an official source.  I am going to ping LM to try and get a clear answer on this question. If I get a response I will post it back here. I played around with deleting the KBWImesh.bgl file and what I then saw was many more, larger and more defined bumps ALL OVER the airport, implying in my mind that the KBWI mesh was overriding my FSGU-NG mesh.

How soon will the next version be available Ricardo? and is there any possibility of making the stars and collisions optional?

Hi, in the coming days we should fix those bumps around the GA apron that all users are experiencing. We apologize for that.

If our mesh was overriding any other mesh it is because ours was more detailed. If ours was less detailed you would have any others show up, its the way that FS loads up meshes. Ours is 5m, and its very difficult to top that.. I say this with pride. 🙂

Thanks for the comments and soon you should hear back from us regarding the fix.

Edited by DanMorera

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1 hour ago, LVFRicardo said:

Hi, this is different, the reason we ask 2m is because certain spikes of terrain stick out in the surfaces and also create a bumpy problem.

The issue you mention will be fixed in an upcoming update of KBWI.

OK...good to know.  Thanks for your efforts and look forward to the fix!


Eric

i9-12900k, RTX 3080ti FTW, 32GB ddr5 5600 RAM, 2TB 980 Pro SSD, H100i AIO, Samsung CRG90 49", Win 11

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