who stole the plane

[Tabs 2,790]

9 hours ago, Orlaam said:

My dad one told me about a pilot who stole an A10 out of a military base he was stationed once. I guess the guy ran into a mountain. I mean to look into the story but keep forgetting. 

That was the Craig Button incident - the plane was out of Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ (I was in high school there when it happened). He peeled off from the back of his flight's formation and flew all the way up to Colorado and crashed into a mountain near the Vail ski resort. There was speculation he'd dropped his ordinance in various places along the flight path too - the bombs were never located and weren't at the crash site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_D._Button

[Greggy_D 935]

45 minutes ago, Avidean said:

There is no way this guy could have figured out how to get this atypical aircraft from cold and dark in a hanger to airborne without quite a bit of type specific knowledge. 

Yeah, I'm not buying the official story.  Have you seen the video of the maneuvers he pulled off?  There is no way possible someone without flight training could have flown that plane in that manner.

[Paraffin 2,197]

8 minutes ago, Greggy_D said:

Yeah, I'm not buying the official story.  Have you seen the video of the maneuvers he pulled off?  There is no way possible someone without flight training could have flown that plane in that manner.

Maybe, but I think the fact that he used the term "back flip" when asking about possible maneuvers on the radio, is an indication that he didn't have much exposure to real world aviation aside from ground ops. 

[Chock 17,769]

When it comes to smaller aeroplanes such as the Dash 8, ATR, CRJ etc, you tend to be a bit more in contact with the crew when ramping than you would be when doing jets, and so it's not inconceivable the guy would have chatted to the aircrews a fair bit and could certainly have quizzed them purely for reasons of being interested in stuff out of curiosity. Ramp agents often do the headset on pushbacks, so they know a bit about the start procedures from that, and if they do tow offs as well, you have to have someone on the brakes in the cockpit to do that. The aircraft has to be powered up for tows because it needs the electrics for the nav and anti-collision lights and it needs the hydraulics for the brakes.

So it's not really surprising that a ramp agent who does that stuff could crank up the engines if they know how to do that other stuff. However, I think listening to the ATC, it's unlikely the guy had much genuine piloting experience when he's referring to manoeuvres by the term 'backflip'. 

[Greggy_D 935]

25 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

Maybe, but I think the fact that he used the term "back flip" when asking about possible maneuvers on the radio, is an indication that he didn't have much exposure to real world aviation aside from ground ops. 

I don't care about verbiage he allegedly used because it's a red herring.  Watch the video of his maneuvers and tell me how someone without any flight training could have pulled that off.  Especially the one where he's inverted, goes into a dive and pulls up just above the water.  In a Q400.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Greggy_D

[Paraffin 2,197]

1 minute ago, Greggy_D said:

I don't care about verbiage because it's a red herring.  Watch the video of his maneuvers and tell me someone without any flight training could have pulled that off.  Especially the one where he's inverted, goes into a dive and pulls up just above the water.  In a Q400.

I think it's impossible to say whether that was prior experience in flight training, or if he just got very lucky in having enough altitude not to smack the water. Maybe intent to suicide was a factor, but anyone with real-world or sim training would have tried that with more altitude cushion, and at this point he was still just fooling around with the plane.

That fact that he barely made it, doesn't suggest to me that he knew what he was doing with the maneuver. Anyway, at this point we're all just guessing. I expect we'll know more about his prior experience before long. 

[BIGSKY 316]

8 hours ago, KevinAu said:

 If he was a mechanic, he would have knowledge of how to operate and repair the systems of the aircraft. Or at least you would hope that a mechanic should.

Especially if he was run up taxi qualified.

Edited August 11, 2018 by BIGSKY

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Greggy_D said:

I don't care about verbiage he allegedly used because it's a red herring.  Watch the video of his maneuvers and tell me how someone without any flight training could have pulled that off.  Especially the one where he's inverted, goes into a dive and pulls up just above the water.  In a Q400.

You can do that in a 777 as well.

It's going to end just as badly.

Any fool can go; "Pull stick back - cows get smaller, push stick forward - cows get bigger."

Edited August 11, 2018 by Guest

[Chock 17,769]

I am fairly sure someone with pilot training would have either attempted the roll with more height, or maybe lost less height when doing it through more skilled control inputs. But as with most comments about this incident, it is just speculation on my part to say that. What does amaze me however, is that he didn't lose a wing or control surface when pulling out. It would have been easy to over stress the thing.

 

[Paraffin 2,197]

The light weight (no pax, no baggage, low on fuel) may have contributed to getting away without control surface or other structural damage in that dive.

[BIGSKY 316]

Horizon now saying he was a Ground service agent,

 

Horizon Airlines-Ground Service Agent.

POSITION INFORMATION

As a Ground Service Agent, you play a critical role to keep our flights running smoothly and safely. Whatever the weather, you'll direct aircraft for takeoff, gate approach, load and unload luggage, and operate equipment to de-ice planes in the winter. Your shift schedule will vary, so you'll need to be flexible with your time. And, as a full-time employee, you'll have full benefits, travel privileges for you and your loved ones, and be eligible for a great bonus program. If you're physically strong, enjoy working outdoors, have an impeccable work ethic, and love to travel, this could be the best job you've ever had, maybe even a lifelong career.

KEY RESPONSIBILITIES

• Baggage and cargo handling
• Aircraft marshaling
• Aircraft deicing
• Work outdoors in all types of weather conditions while remaining focused on safely performing duties
• Other duties as assigned

[JRBarrett 3,070]

Certainly possible that he may have had sufficient training as a tow-qualified ramper to do APU runs and ride brakes in the cockpit when under tow.

It varies by industry. I work in corporate aviation. In our operation, we have line crew who are qualified to fuel and tow aircraft, but only licensed mechanics are permitted to do engine runs or taxi, and that only after attending formal classroom training and qualifying in a Level D sim with an instructor.

He may certainly have sat in on engine runs as an observer during the course of his 3-year career with Horizon. Working for the airline for that long In a ground handling role, he could have picked up quite a bit of knowledge.

He may or may not have been a simmer. His handling of the aircraft in flight( outside of the split S maneuver) appeared reasonably proficient, and his relatively calm demeanor on the radio gave me the definite impression that this was “not his first rodeo” when it comes to actually flying an aircraft. I’d be very curious if investigators will uncover any previous flight training in GA aircraft. No sign that he had a valid pilot license, but he may have been a student at some point.

I’m sure that investigators will closely examine any computers he may have owned, and if there is a flight sim connection it will undoubted come out soon enough.

But, even if he has no flight simulator, there are many detailed Q400 tutorials online for both the Majestic and FlyJSim products that would have provided a lot of systems information -especially for someone with that he opportunity to spend time in and around the real aircraft.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

4 hours ago, Paraffin said:

It's interesting that they scrambled the intercept out of Portland. NAS Whidbey Island is a lot closer (45nm to Seattle), but I guess the Growlers stationed there aren't ideal for air-air intercepts. IIRC, they only have a pair of AMRAAMs, not the sidewinders and guns on the F-15's out of Portland for close-range ID and intercept.

McChord Field was very close to where he was flying and on the ATC he was told to land there. McChord is the command for the Western Air Defense Sector for NORAD. The order to scramble those jets from Portland likely came from McChord Field.  NAS Whidby is probably not operating under NORAD command and may not have had anything ready to go. Portland is always ready to go as part of NORAD

Edited August 11, 2018 by Matthew Kane

[Orlaam 306]

2 hours ago, Tabs said:

That was the Craig Button incident - the plane was out of Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ (I was in high school there when it happened). He peeled off from the back of his flight's formation and flew all the way up to Colorado and crashed into a mountain near the Vail ski resort. There was speculation he'd dropped his ordinance in various places along the flight path too - the bombs were never located and weren't at the crash site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_D._Button

Yeah that's the guy.  He must have wanted to die.  No other reason to explain it.  I know that my dad was stationed there during those years.  I was 25 then but don't really recall a story about it.  There have been many who have taken aircraft without permission, or hijacked, like disgruntled FedEx employee who attempted to take over a DC-10.  Frank Eugene Corder stole a Cessna 150 and tried crashing into the WH in 9/12/1994 (stolen on 9/11! 😮).  Brian Joseph Hedglin, a commercial pilot who attempted to steal a CRJ200 in 2012.  There are dozens of stories like this.  I know of some I can't even find.  One guy buzzed a girl's house whom he was sleeping with, however, she called off the affair (she was married) and he flew into the ground.  People just don't realize the fact that it happens.  It's typically someone with some training, albeit limited, but a few have occurred with people like this guy.

[Orlaam 306]

44 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

Certainly possible that he may have had sufficient training as a tow-qualified ramper to do APU runs and ride brakes in the cockpit when under tow.

It varies by industry. I work in corporate aviation. In our operation, we have line crew who are qualified to fuel and tow aircraft, but only licensed mechanics are permitted to do engine runs or taxi, and that only after attending formal classroom training and qualifying in a Level D sim with an instructor.

He may certainly have sat in on engine runs as an observer during the course of his 3-year career with Horizon. Working for the airline for that long In a ground handling role, he could have picked up quite a bit of knowledge.

He may or may not have been a simmer. His handling of the aircraft in flight( outside of the split S maneuver) appeared reasonably proficient, and his relatively calm demeanor on the radio gave me the definite impression that this was “not his first rodeo” when it comes to actually flying an aircraft. I’d be very curious if investigators will uncover any previous flight training in GA aircraft. No sign that he had a valid pilot license, but he may have been a student at some point.

I’m sure that investigators will closely examine any computers he may have owned, and if there is a flight sim connection it will undoubted come out soon enough.

But, even if he has no flight simulator, there are many detailed Q400 tutorials online for both the Majestic and FlyJSim products that would have provided a lot of systems information -especially for someone with that he opportunity to spend time in and around the real aircraft.

I read that the sheriff discovered he looked at start-up procedures on YouTube the night before.  Not sure if that true or not.  I'm wondering why his tire were smoking all the way down the runway?  The Dash is far from an easy aircraft to steal.  You have so many procedural tasks.  Autofeather, PTU, fuel pumps, control lock, flaps, and so on.  I realize he could forgo the pumps and other items and still get airborne, but I'm still shocked he got up in the air at all with a bird like that.  I think there was mention that he had no idea how to work the AP or FMC (not that an FMC is needed for a joyride or practice flight), so he likely just learned the basics to get running and airborne.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Orlaam