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who stole the plane

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11 minutes ago, udidwht said:

You'd have to look yourself over on that one. At least I have direction. No red herring here.

 

Court involvement more often than not is to late. Just ask all the victims who've died at the hands of someone who went off the deep end only to find out afterwards they had a diagnosed condition that was left up to them to treat. LOL!

Again, you are talking in circles.  You don't wanna force evaluations on people or lock them up (COE), but somehow you think a magical wand exists that can predict violence.  Do you honestly believe all murders or suicides are committed by the MI?  Wow again.

You can't have it both ways.  Either you force against an individuals will an evaluation, which would expire at some point, or you allow individuals seek out treatment and let families recognize abnormality for those with reality impairments. 

You do realize medications and therapy do not modify behavior, yes?  Are you aware than depot medications are given to patients on court order?  They still commit crimes despite ACT team oversight. 


- Chris

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2 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

You are missing the point.  You said MI is ignored.  You have no predictive measures or interventions to support this or to further the progress of Dx and Tx.

Do you think this man who stole the plane was diagnosable?  We've only heard that he was a nice guy, stable, hard working.  So if he never presented with depressive symptoms, psychosis, or any number of qualifying criteria, then would you have known he was gonna steal an airplane? 

While I believe community psychiatry is a failure, reinstating institutions would not prevent these events.

Actually I did not say or suggest that. It (mental health) is however in the current state not working on any level.

Institutionalizing those deemed 'Not fit for society' would be great compared to what we have now. Have any idea what an ER visit is cost wise? Now multiply that for those with mental health disorders who use it as a revolving door process. Considerably higher than being committed.


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1 minute ago, Orlaam said:

Again, you are talking in circles.  You don't wanna force evaluations on people or lock them up (COE), but somehow you think a magical wand exists that can predict violence.  Do you honestly believe all murders or suicides are committed by the MI?  Wow again.

You can't have it both ways.  Either you force against an individuals will an evaluation, which would expire at some point, or you allow individuals seek out treatment and let families recognize abnormality for those with reality impairments. 

You do realize medications and therapy do not modify behavior, yes?  Are you aware than depot medications are given to patients on court order?  They still commit crimes despite ACT team oversight. 

Not going in circles. Are you denying the fact that there are people with severe mental health issues that have been diagnosed? As I've said nothing is 100% percent but you'll never achieve that goal if you don't move towards it. it's clear based on what you've said.....everything is just fine the way it is. LOL! Hence why we have the ever continuing saga of mental health related problems in this country.

Court mandated intervention is only good as long as one is in custody and being monitored. You're preaching to the wrong choir.

There comes a point when court is simply not enough. I have seen countless ones in the ER that an MHP released only to have them kill someone a short time later. Time to change the game plan.


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5 minutes ago, udidwht said:

Actually I did not say or suggest that. It (mental health) is however in the current state not working on any level.

Institutionalizing those deemed 'Not fit for society' would be great compared to what we have now. Have any idea what an ER visit is cost wise? Now multiply that for those with mental health disorders who use it as a revolving door process. Considerably higher than being committed.

You think I don't realize that?  I've worked at 4 major voluntary psych hospitals in Arizona.  I worked at one involuntary, and even for the state with forensic (guilty except insane) criminals.  The voluntary hospitals are 50-80% repeater patients, the involuntary were slightly lower, maybe 40%.  My estimates, at any hospital, were a positive UDS for methamphetamine in 75% of patients.  So that war on drugs is really working.  Commitment is great and would cost less, considering community psychiatry uses medicaid-funded transitional living, group homes, shared apartments, and shelters.  We are still paying for their medications, housing and food.  Unfortunately, in this country, we can't just commit psych patients at will, even if we brought back asylums.  Thousands would be on the street, like it or not.

Allow me to educate some on how mental patients with SSI/SSD use the system.  They receive a government check, albeit not a lot, but 1200 or a little more.  They take said check and go to strip clubs, bars, and purchase illicit drugs until the money is gone.  Then they check into a hospital and claim SI/HI.  EMTALA and other policies requires a facility place them in a bed.  They hospital hop until their days run out (medicaid), then step-down to a less acute facility.  Then back on the streets to repeat.  I know, I have worked with many SWs that oversaw patients in the community.  I have even had patients tell me similar stories.  They are also friends on facebook.  

Cutting back on repeat visits has been a major deal in my state; however, I don't feel that this will fix anything.  Besides, we are talking about unrecognized MI, or other acts of violence committed in the absence of MI.    


- Chris

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In case you missed it....countless thousands are already on the streets. Those that are lucky enough to have SSI/SSD account for only a small portion. Many have U & I insurance...our money.

Stay on meth long enough and your crazy. There's no fixing that. EMTALA requires that hospitals only 'Stabilize' one. Nothing beyond that. This is where many (hospitals) of them fail. People that walk into the triage that are NOT having an 'Emergency medical' situation can be deemed stable right then and there. Hospitals instead choose to continue the process for profit more often than not. Not because they are legally entitled to. It's also illegal to board a patient in an emergency room. Supreme court ruled on that.

But I'm seeing change in hospitals current approach (albeit slowly) but change is happening.

Edited by udidwht

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5 minutes ago, udidwht said:

In case you missed it....countless thousands are already on the streets. Those that are lucky enough to have SSI/SSD account for only a small portion. Many have U & I insurance...our money.

Stay on meth long enough and your crazy. There's no fixing that. EMTALA requires that hospitals only 'Stabilize' one. Nothing beyond that. This is where many )hospitals) of them fail. People that walk into the triage that are NOT having an 'Emergency medical' situation can be deemed stable right then and there. Hospitals instead choose to continue the process for profit more often than not. Not because they are legally entitled to. It's also illegal to board a patient in an emergency room. Supreme court ruled on that.

But I'm seeing change in hospitals current approach (albeit slowly) but change is happening.

Yes and no.  No in the sense that once a patient expresses suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation, they must be held in the ER until psychiatric placement.

This whole discussion has been about recognizing and prevention.  None of which you have a solution to.  Your view of the world is very black and white, as well as insular.

Have you heard of Rodney Alcala?  Prior to this game show's airing, he had murdered an unknown number of women.  Do you watch this and think "killer" or "mentally ill"?  That is, if you can set aside your knowledge after the fact.  Creepy doesn't correlate to MI either.  This the point I'm trying to make.  Predicting violence or suicide is not a science.  It never will be.

How about Stephen McDaniel?  He graduated law school, then dismembered a neighbor he was obsessed with?  Interview online of his by news while the neighbor's search continued.  He was a little whiny baby, but no one would have said "killer/MI".  Bud Dwyer, killed himself on live TV after an investigation alleged he stole money in a political position.  Did anyone see this coming?  No.  Mental health workers are not mind readers, and unless a person reports ill intent, society is powerless.  It matters not whether you or anyone else on here thinks I'm jaded or careless.  It's common sense.


- Chris

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13 hours ago, Orlaam said:

Yes and no.  No in the sense that once a patient expresses suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation, they must be held in the ER until psychiatric placement.

This whole discussion has been about recognizing and prevention.  None of which you have a solution to.  Your view of the world is very black and white, as well as insular.

Have you heard of Rodney Alcala?  Prior to this game show's airing, he had murdered an unknown number of women.  Do you watch this and think "killer" or "mentally ill"?  That is, if you can set aside your knowledge after the fact.  Creepy doesn't correlate to MI either.  This the point I'm trying to make.  Predicting violence or suicide is not a science.  It never will be.

How about Stephen McDaniel?  He graduated law school, then dismembered a neighbor he was obsessed with?  Interview online of his by news while the neighbor's search continued.  He was a little whiny baby, but no one would have said "killer/MI".  Bud Dwyer, killed himself on live TV after an investigation alleged he stole money in a political position.  Did anyone see this coming?  No.  Mental health workers are not mind readers, and unless a person reports ill intent, society is powerless.  It matters not whether you or anyone else on here thinks I'm jaded or careless.  It's common sense.

Emergency rooms are not allowed to board patients on any level particularly mental health patients. Does it happen? Yes. But when caught the hospital has a lot of explaining to do. The excuse that..."Well we don't have any bed or placement available' has already been ruled as 'Unconstitutional'.

Your also avoiding the fact that there are many diagnosed patients that can be dealt with other than out current approach (which clearly isn't working). Many of those killers were admittedly nice people according to some until they got caught then the truth came out from everyone who stuck their head in the sand about them. Rodney Alcala....by the way did indeed have a history of mental health. My father worked on that case in his years as a cop.

One doesn't need to predict but only asses risk. The current approach of leaving it up to the individual with a diagnosed mental disorder doesn't work.


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1 hour ago, udidwht said:

Emergency rooms are not allowed to board patients on any level particularly mental health patients. Does it happen? Yes. But when caught the hospital has a lot of explaining to do. The excuse that..."Well we don't have any bed or placement available' has already been ruled as 'Unconstitutional'.

Your also avoiding the fact that there are many diagnosed patients that can be dealt with other than out current approach (which clearly isn't working). Many of those killers were admittedly nice people according to some until they got caught then the truth came out from everyone who stuck their head in the sand about them. Rodney Alcala....by the way did indeed have a history of mental health. My father worked on that case in his years as a cop.

One doesn't need to predict but only asses risk. The current approach of leaving it up to the individual with a diagnosed mental disorder doesn't work.

It makes no difference what the Washington Supreme Court ruled.  Patients sit in obs for days or longer for psych placement in most states, like it or not.  It's interesting that you keep bringing this up, but it's a safeguard put in place for patients reporting suicidal or homicidal ideation.  So, we let them go?  That's a great way to prevent violence.

I'm not avoiding anything.  You have proposed zero solutions to the issues you feel are inadequate.  You have a baseless argument regarding the approach to predicting violence, since, the risk is often not known until it is too late.  You have skated around that fact this whole time.  You're just unhappy there are things outside your control and that the world is abstract.

You're cherry-picking the points I make to fit your narrative.  You have ignored medical conditions that present with psychiatric symptoms, citing it's rare.  That is clearly false.  You have claimed court-ordered evaluation happens "too late" to make a difference.  You have asserted the only way individuals obtain treatment is through self-reporting, when the act of COE is a system in place.  We have a 200+ bed facility in Arizona dedicated to assessing risk for COE patients.  It's a court, with judges and attorneys. 

That brings me back to the story of this Q400 theft.  What mental health failing existed here?  You are insinuating this event was a mental health problem, but I'm curious how you know this?  Even further, if his supposed forced evaluation you allude to, but have no concept for implementation in mass, was negative for MI, then what?

And how would you deal with current patients with anxiety disorders, specific phobia, hypochondriasis, or other less harm-related disorders?  Would you like the NSDAP method of imprisonment and execution, or just putting them in a padded room for eternity?

Edited by Orlaam

- Chris

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If you watched the video above and wondered like I did if the bachelorette survived her date.
From Wikipedia.
Actor Jed Mills, who competed against Alcala as "Bachelor #2", later described him as a "very strange guy" with "bizarre opinions". Alcala won a date with "bachelorette" Cheryl Bradshaw, who subsequently refused to go out with him, according to published reports, because she found him "creepy". Criminal profiler Pat Brown, noting that Alcala killed Robin Samsoe and at least two other women after his Dating Game appearance, speculated that Bradshaw's rejection might have been an exacerbating factor. "One wonders what that did in his mind", Brown said. "That is something he would not take too well. Serial killers don't understand the rejection. They think that something is wrong with that girl: 'She played me. She played hard to get.

Edited by Bills511

 

 

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1 hour ago, Orlaam said:

It makes no difference what the Washington Supreme Court ruled.  Patients sit in obs for days or longer for psych placement in most states, like it or not.  It's interesting that you keep bringing this up, but it's a safeguard put in place for patients reporting suicidal or homicidal ideation.  So, we let them go?  That's a great way to prevent violence.

I'm not avoiding anything.  You have proposed zero solutions to the issues you feel are inadequate.  You have a baseless argument regarding the approach to predicting violence, since, the risk is often not known until it is too late.  You have skated around that fact this whole time.  You're just unhappy there are things outside your control and that the world is abstract.

You're cherry-picking the points I make to fit your narrative.  You have ignored medical conditions that present with psychiatric symptoms, citing it's rare.  That is clearly false.  You have claimed court-ordered evaluation happens "too late" to make a difference.  You have asserted the only way individuals obtain treatment is through self-reporting, when the act of COE is a system in place.  We have a 200+ bed facility in Arizona dedicated to assessing risk for COE patients.  It's a court, with judges and attorneys. 

That brings me back to the story of this Q400 theft.  What mental health failing existed here?  You are insinuating this event was a mental health problem, but I'm curious how you know this?  Even further, if his supposed forced evaluation you allude to, but have no concept for implementation in mass, was negative for MI, then what?

And how would you deal with current patients with anxiety disorders, specific phobia, hypochondriasis, or other less harm-related disorders?  Would you like the NSDAP method of imprisonment and execution, or just putting them in a padded room for eternity?

1, It's you who've offered no recourse or action based on the current system. This has been pointed out to you by more than just me.

2. Disregarding supreme court rulings has consequences as some hospitals have found out. 

3. Emergency rooms are not safeguards specifically put in place for mental health treatment. Pure rubbish nonsense. Risk can easily be assessed during an evaluation even more so with one who has a lengthy history. It's called risk assessment.  

4. I've offered several solutions. You've offered....Let's keep things as is mentality. LOL! No cherry picking involved. LOL!

5. I have not and do not condone self reporting. That's the problem with the current system now. Again this has been pointed out to you by more than just me.

6. There is no forced evaluation for one who either already has a history documented and/or been recently diagnosed. It's part of the process of being MHP'd.

7. The other disorders can progressively get worse overtime if we continue with the current method/s of treating them. LOL! If you can call it that. Treatment which are more often than not amounts to nothing more than....make sure you take your meds.....Don't forget to follow up with your care.....etc....It doesn't work and frequent repeat visits and involuntary holds prove this.

8. To early to tell with the Q400 incident as I haven't suggested. But one would have to be a bit off to pull a stunt like that.


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off  topic  here  


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7 hours ago, udidwht said:

But one would have to be a bit off to pull a stunt like that.

At this stage, and since the guy is gone, this is and may well be all we can ever really determine for certain about Russell's mental health condition. We don't really know if he was building to that point or literally just had an 'I don't like Mondays' moment when he tipped up for work that day.

I seem to recall reading somewhere (not sure where it was now) that he'd supposedly been in the cockpit for a long time (i.e. over an hour) trying to figure out how to get the thing started before the incident became noticed as something untoward when the aeroplane began taxying without permission (I'm presuming if that is true, someone might have seen him in the aeroplane and simply assumed he was authorised to be working on it). This at least suggests it wasn't an entirely spur of the moment thing.

If it is true, this in itself might seem surprising to some, but it's a fact that aeroplanes can be parked up at airports and left there for quite a long time (in some cases weeks), so if someone on the ramp says they are going off shift and disappears, there is really nothing to stop them going over to such an unattended aeroplane and having all the time in the world to set the thing up so long as it has a working battery or a GPU is kicking about and free to use (good luck with that one at Manchester lol). They would not be missed as certainly at my place of work (Manchester Airport), we just generally shout cheerio to people in the crew room when we're off and then walk to one of the exits, nobody monitors us at that point. Actually, this is a situation that could be changed without too much disruption by something such as having us scan our pass to indicate 'off shift' and then maybe a timer could kick in to signal an alert if we'd not gone through an exit off airside within say ten minutes. It would at least mean that nobody was wandering around the airport at will yet not missed by anyone. I might actually suggest that idea to the security people at work as I don't think it would be particularly expensive to implement such a thing and it would in no way be disruptive to operations as they presently are, it is in fact already something which occurs with the logging system for the staff car parks.

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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Damn Alan, there you go again talking sense.

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Best regards,

 

Neal McCullough

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According to first-time pilot Russel, he took it around Rainier and presumably burned tons of fuel getting there and back.  He's then talking to ATC Andrew and tooling around the southern end of Puget Sound like we saw in the loosely coupled sound and flight track. I've heard nothing though of his first half hour of the flight, a flight which apparently totaled over an hour.  I'm assuming we've only heard the latter half of the flight because the aviation journalists began recording the flight communications about half way through.   I'm also assuming that ATC has the recordings of the first half of the flight but hasn't released them.

Will they release the recordings?  When did he start talking with Seattle approach?  Soon after takeoff?  After he circled Rainier and started heading back to the Sound?

I agree with Chock that if the final sequence of the flight track was correct that he probably was circling down at that point into the ground.  And maybe it was a stall but maybe he augered-in, intentionally.  He did say less than a minute before, right after completing the roll, that he thought "that was going to be it".  He also said earlier that he was planning to do a barrel roll then "nose down and call it a night".  That and other things said are suggestive to me that he achieved his desired outcome.

 


Eric Anderson

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On 8/16/2018 at 4:38 PM, Orlaam said:

So cases of hypothyroidism, cancer, paroxysmal disorders arising out of the blue (e.g., CVA, MI), chronic pain, sleep disorders, and hundreds of other medical conditions that give way to psychiatric symptoms are rare?  That's a new one.  50% applies to medical conditions that present with psych Sx.  Like I said, even some antibiotics can result in delirium and psychosis.  Albeit rare or not, do think anyone can predict this?  Not hardly.

Even our food, it is loaded with hormones, sugars, sodium, which drives thirst.  Sodas are the real catcher, you drink them to quench your thirst but the sodium in them makes you crave more, you are essentially drinking saltwater disguised with sweeteners.  It will drive a pilot or a passenger crazy if they are used too much, or anyone, I have been driven mad with thirst on long oceanic flights making the mistake of drinking soda instead of juice or water, with apple juice being the best for thirst, or water with lemon better yet.

Life kills us from the minute we are born, the environment around us and things we consume age us, especially too much sun exposure.  Essentially, it is how we think thru the life's fog that helps us. We should do everything, even our simming and our social media, in moderation.  We need to get off the keyboard and give attention to our spouse, significant other or child if we have one, if they want the attention or need it. 

I leverage my time on the computer with time outside, in the real world, such as my flight to Europe last year, I had to get away and there is nothing better than a British Airways 747 to help you do that.  I love the hobby of simming, but I balance it with other things to do, knowing simming is there for learning and relaxation is all I need, even if I take a week away from it which I sometimes do, replacing my obsession with flight by watching a movie, or flirting with the ladies at the 99 cent store....

John

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