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who stole the plane

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2 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

Shunned is not ignored.  You can walk into any ER or psychiatric hospital and tell them you need help.  That's not ignoring.

So you're asking someone with a potentially severe mental health issue to 1) notice that they have a problem, 2) willing to tell someone about it, and 3) be willing to under-go treatment?

5 minutes ago, udidwht said:

If it's during an interview/application process who's going to know outside of the process? Plan on telling everyone?

Absolutely they will.  They are going to stamp Denied on your application and tell the airline not to hire you because you admitted to having a mental health issue.  Do you think a pilot is going to get a job anywhere if they admit to every potential employer they have mental issues?  Do you think any employer wants that kind of liability?

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2 minutes ago, udidwht said:

Compared to a clinical diagnoses of a mental health disorder that can't be cured. Nice try.

Have a side effect from antibiotic medication? Stop taking them. Problem corrected. Can't say the same for many mental health diagnoses that require daily medication.

You really don't understand medicine.  So, your assumption is that medical conditions that can't be cured, yet carry a potential for psychiatric symptoms is a non-qualifier?  Wow.  You are choosing to ignore medical diseases solely to satisfy your argument.


- Chris

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1 minute ago, Orlaam said:

If you work in an ER, you should be far more aware of mental illness and comorbidity, which it doesn't seem you do.  People who stop their psych meds do so because they A. feel better, B. would rather pay for illicit drugs than Rx, C. have no insight/judgment, which is as a result of an SMI status.  They aren't flying planes or running a big business, let me tell you.

Oh believe me I've heard every reason under the sun. Proof is in the pudding with repeated visits and EDIE alerts.


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1 minute ago, Orlaam said:

You really don't understand medicine.  So, your assumption is that medical conditions that can't be cured, yet carry a potential for psychiatric symptoms is a non-qualifier?  Wow.  You are choosing to ignore medical diseases solely to satisfy your argument.

Yes the clear cut ones off the bat. Have to start somewhere. Up till now your thought is the reason why the mental health state is in the state it's currently in....going no where fast.


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6 minutes ago, E6BAV8R said:

So you're asking someone with a potentially severe mental health issue to 1) notice that they have a problem, 2) willing to tell someone about it, and 3) be willing to under-go treatment?

Absolutely they will.  They are going to stamp Denied on your application and tell the airline not to hire you because you admitted to having a mental health issue.  Do you think a pilot is going to get a job anywhere if they admit to every potential employer they have mental issues?  Do you think any employer wants that kind of liability?

He or she shouldn't.

Look for new career.

 

Liability? What liability? There is none on the employer.

How about the liability for current employers that do? What airlines are special? Give me a break. Not when it comes to my safety and 36,000 feet.

Edited by udidwht

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3 minutes ago, E6BAV8R said:

So you're asking someone with a potentially severe mental health issue to 1) notice that they have a problem, 2) willing to tell someone about it, and 3) be willing to under-go treatment?

Happens everyday.  I know, I have worked psychiatric floors for 6 years and even reviewed packets for psychiatric transfer...hundreds of them.  I've even worked the involuntary side where police bring people against their will to a facility for COE (court ordered evaluation).  This isn't foreign territory.


- Chris

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7 minutes ago, udidwht said:

He or she shouldn't.

Look for new career.

Good luck convincing people to do that that know nothing other than their chosen career path for their entire lives, supporting their families, to walk into a medical office, admit they have a mental health issue, and lose their jobs and income with nothing else to fall back on.  Not to mention the fact that, even if you do go get help and take medication to have it under control, you'll likely lose your medical, anyway.

 

6 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

Happens everyday.  I know, I have worked psychiatric floors for 6 years and even reviewed packets for psychiatric transfer...hundreds of them.  I've even worked the involuntary side where police bring people against their will to a facility for COE (court ordered evaluation).  This isn't foreign territory.

So just because some people do it everyday means it is good enough?  In your opinion, everything is good the way it works now?  Essentially saying "Well the help is there - they just have to go out and get it"?

How do you provide logical reasoning to someone that may not be logical or realize they have a problem?

Edited by E6BAV8R
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3 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

Happens everyday.  I know, I have worked psychiatric floors for 6 years and even reviewed packets for psychiatric transfer...hundreds of them.  I've even worked the involuntary side where police bring people against their will to a facility for COE (court ordered evaluation).  This isn't foreign territory.

Being court ordered is not a willing process. Nor is once the MD has deemed you a risk and put on a mental health hold. Been doing this a lot of years to know better and I'm not including the 20 spent on the streets as a cop. LOL!


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1 minute ago, E6BAV8R said:

So just because some people do it everyday means it is good enough?  In your opinion, everything is good the way it works now?  Essentially saying "Well the help is there - they just have to go out and get it"?

Well, let's see, my crystal ball is broken, so unless you wanna start knocking on doors like vacuum cleaners salesmen, I don't think you can just randomly force just anyone to be evaluated.  My opinion is that we live is a free country, you cannot lock people up who haven't posed a danger to themselves or others without just cause.  You can petition people in my state for evaluation, but how often do you think those hold water?  Not very. 


- Chris

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2 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

Well, let's see, my crystal ball is broken, so unless you wanna start knocking on doors like vacuum cleaners salesmen, I don't think you can just randomly force just anyone to be evaluated.  My opinion is that we live is a free country, you cannot lock people up who haven't posed a danger to themselves or others without just cause.  You can petition people in my state for evaluation, but how often do you think those hold water?  Not very. 

Who said anything about locking up random people? Don't be silly. LOL!


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4 minutes ago, udidwht said:

Being court ordered is not a willing process. Nor is once the MD has deemed you a risk and put on a mental health hold. Been doing this a lot of years to know better and I'm not including the 20 spent on the streets as a cop. LOL!

Your point was that MI is ignored.  I have been in medicine for almost 20 years.  COE is not an ignoring process. 

If you were a cop, then did you just lock up people you thought looked criminal then?  That's a reactionary job if I ever heard of one.


- Chris

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2 minutes ago, udidwht said:

Who said anything about locking up random people? Don't be silly. LOL!

Oh now, you're being silly not me.  The red herrings are too much to take. 🙄


- Chris

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1 minute ago, Orlaam said:

Your point was that MI is ignored.  I have been in medicine for almost 20 years.  COE is not an ignoring process. 

If you were a cop, then did you just lock up people you thought looked criminal then?  That's a reactionary job if I ever heard of one.

 Locking one up who is clinically diagnosed crazy is entirely different than locking one up because you think they look crazy. You know no one here remotely suggests that eh?

I'd have no problem locking one up who's proven to be a habitual criminal. Wouldn't break a sweat over it.


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5 minutes ago, Orlaam said:

Oh now, you're being silly not me.  The red herrings are too much to take. 🙄

You'd have to look yourself over on that one. At least I have direction. No red herring here.

 

Court involvement more often than not is to late. Just ask all the victims who've died at the hands of someone who went off the deep end only to find out afterwards they had a diagnosed condition that was left up to them to treat. LOL!

Edited by udidwht

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1 minute ago, udidwht said:

 Locking one up who is clinically diagnosed crazy is entirely different than locking one up because you think they look crazy. You know no one here remotely suggests that eh?

I'd have no problem locking one up who's proven to be a habitual criminal. Wouldn't break a sweat over it.

You are missing the point.  You said MI is ignored.  You have no predictive measures or interventions to support this or to further the progress of Dx and Tx.

Do you think this man who stole the plane was diagnosable?  We've only heard that he was a nice guy, stable, hard working.  So if he never presented with depressive symptoms, psychosis, or any number of qualifying criteria, then would you have known he was gonna steal an airplane? 

While I believe community psychiatry is a failure, reinstating institutions would not prevent these events.

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- Chris

Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX | Intel Core i9 13900KF | Gigabyte GeForce RTX 4090 24 GB | 64GB DDR5 SDRAM | Corsair H100i Elite 240mm Liquid Cooling | 1TB & 2TB Samsung Gen 4 SSD  | 1000 Watt Gold PSU |  Windows 11 Pro | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Thrustmaster TCA Captain X Airbus | Asus ROG 38" 4k IPS Monitor (PG38UQ)

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