Limiting Framerate kills framerate - why?

[AnkH 2,262]

18 hours ago, GSalden said:

You can set the FFTF value to your own system. Eg 0.01 on the ground and 0.4 at 2000 ft and above. Then your will have a longer terrain loading time whn flying low, but at the cost of max fps.

Gerard, I do understand the concept of the tool. But it is still an open question to me if you have that delayed or absent autogen loading using FFTF Dynamic when starting off with the low FFTF value on a heavy airport. Rob clearly showed that when using either unlimited FPS or low FFTF value, autogen loading is hampered after some time and never recovers. The question is: does this also happen with the tool? Or is the switch to a higher FFTF value at whatever altitude sufficient to recover the autogen loading?

[GSalden 4,656]

1 hour ago, AnkH said:

Gerard, I do understand the concept of the tool. But it is still an open question to me if you have that delayed or absent autogen loading using FFTF Dynamic when starting off with the low FFTF value on a heavy airport. Rob clearly showed that when using either unlimited FPS or low FFTF value, autogen loading is hampered after some time and never recovers. The question is: does this also happen with the tool? Or is the switch to a higher FFTF value at whatever altitude sufficient to recover the autogen loading?

It all depends on the power of your pc and the AG radius/density settings.

[pmb 5,137]

I am one of those suffering autogen loading in patches. This refers to certain conditions, but under these conditions is reproducible. One of my standard test is taking off from KSFO into the Silicon Valley with an extended mass of buildings. I am not flying fast in any way, i.e. a C172 at an elevation of around 3000 ft.

KSFO is FB, the surrounding area is ORBX NCA.

Of course you can mask these patches, e.g., by using bad weather (i.e. that representative for the area), fog and stuff with a visibility of few miles only. However, selecting the "fair weather scheme" I see the patches coming up in the distance. I made a video of this and posted it on the LM forum a year ago already:

https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=125808&start=30

This is with pretty high settings indeed. The only setting which lowering helped was autogen draw distance to "medium". All the others I tried (LOD, texture resolution etc.) didn't change anything. I usually use TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10 and the corresponding highres textures checkbox checked. Removing it, i.e. the default value of 8, doesn't change anything either.  On the other hand, when setting autogen draw distance to "medium" autogen continually grows from the ground as it should, albeit in a pretty close distance (comparable to the 3.x autogen radius).

I should mention that I use the monitor for scenery display only, all gauges and controls are on a hardware panel. This way I may see more than those looking out of a 3D cockpit window.

Now this topic renewed my interest in testing as I was told several times limiting fps would help with autogen loading. My usual setting is monitor 30 Hz, fps in-game unlimited VSync and TB on. No external limiter. I modified this to 29 fps limited internally (which resulted in something between 22 and 24 fps effectively at KFSO and somewhat better later) and alternatively 24 fps (with even slightly lower figures).

The short and sad result is: Autogen still loads in patches. Exactly the same pattern as with unlimited fps.

Kind regard, Michael

[AnkH 2,262]

2 hours ago, GSalden said:

It all depends on the power of your pc and the AG radius/density settings.

Sorry to say, but you start to drive me nuts. NO, it does NOT only depend on the settings and the power of the PC, as Rob clearly showed with his videos. Did you actually watched them? If you run anything higher than "medium" for "autogen drawing distance" and you combine that with either unlimited FPS or a low FFTF value, you will have problems with autogen loading. That's why I repeat my question again (and again, and again, and again...): does the FFTF Dynamic tool overcome this or is the autogen loading hampered due to the initial low FFTF value?

@pmb As the videos of Rob indicate, limiting the FPS only works if you not play around with the FFTF value in parallel. Did you check that you have no FFTF entry in your config or at least 0.33?

[pmb 5,137]

23 minutes ago, AnkH said:

@pmb As the videos of Rob indicate, limiting the FPS only works if you not play around with the FFTF value in parallel. Did you check that you have no FFTF entry in your config or at least 0.33?

No modification of FFTF at all, neither in prepar3d.cfg nor via the FFTF tool. (I tried the latter separately but it didn't help with this specific issue either.)

Otherwise I agree. As far as I can judge, the autogen loading in patches does NOT depend on PC power or settings (with the only exception of autogen distance).

Kind regards, Michael

 

[Cargostorm 151]

The other side is that at least Aerosoft in general recommended for their airliners to set fps to unlimited (at least this was the case prior to v4.3) in order not to loose performance. Not sure whether PMDG suggested the same for their airliners.

[Michael Moe 495]

Well i am not going to state anything as a fact but yesterday i was flying in KLAX/KPSP/KSAN/KSNA area with FTX SCA in the Lanceair and had some autogen issues (still using the FFTF for blurry) and noticed my slider for autogen draw distance was set to high.

Returning this to medium and actually contra moved my autogen sliders to Very dense from Normal during the flight and everything was back to normal.

So @AnkH FFTF does not fix this (at least on my machine)

 

Thanks

Michael Moe

Edited August 15, 2018 by Michael Moe

[RALF9636 1,951]

3 hours ago, pmb said:

I am one of those suffering autogen loading in patches. This refers to certain conditions, but under these conditions is reproducible. One of my standard test is taking off from KSFO into the Silicon Valley with an extended mass of buildings. I am not flying fast in any way, i.e. a C172 at an elevation of around 3000 ft.

KSFO is FB, the surrounding area is ORBX NCA.

Of course you can mask these patches, e.g., by using bad weather (i.e. that representative for the area), fog and stuff with a visibility of few miles only. However, selecting the "fair weather scheme" I see the patches coming up in the distance. I made a video of this and posted it on the LM forum a year ago already:

https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=125808&start=30

This is with pretty high settings indeed. The only setting which lowering helped was autogen draw distance to "medium". All the others I tried (LOD, texture resolution etc.) didn't change anything. I usually use TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10 and the corresponding highres textures checkbox checked. Removing it, i.e. the default value of 8, doesn't change anything either.  On the other hand, when setting autogen draw distance to "medium" autogen continually grows from the ground as it should, albeit in a pretty close distance (comparable to the 3.x autogen radius).

I should mention that I use the monitor for scenery display only, all gauges and controls are on a hardware panel. This way I may see more than those looking out of a 3D cockpit window.

Now this topic renewed my interest in testing as I was told several times limiting fps would help with autogen loading. My usual setting is monitor 30 Hz, fps in-game unlimited VSync and TB on. No external limiter. I modified this to 29 fps limited internally (which resulted in something between 22 and 24 fps effectively at KFSO and somewhat better later) and alternatively 24 fps (with even slightly lower figures).

The short and sad result is: Autogen still loads in patches. Exactly the same pattern as with unlimited fps.

Kind regard, Michael

I think we have to distinguish two different phenomenons here.

If I understand you correctly, you do not loose your autogen completely even when flying around longer in your dense testing area. The autogen is continously loaded, but keeps popping up in batches.

That is what I experience too in dense areas. I also found that nothing helps but keeping the AG distance at medium. Even reducing the AG density to sparse does not help. It is also independent from FPS limits or FFTF settings.

I'd love to see Rob do his test video (from the other thread) in the Bay Area with FTX NCA.

 

The other phenomenon is the complete loss of autogen after some time. This can be cured by an FPS limit and an appropriate FFTF setting.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by RALF9636

[pmb 5,137]

17 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

I think we have to distinguish two different phenomenons here.

If I understand you correctly, you do not loose your autogen completely even when flying around longer in your dense testing area. The autogen is continously loaded, but keeps popping up in batches.

The other phenomenon is the complete loss of autogen after some time. This can be cured by an FPS limit and an appropriate FFTF setting.

While these two issues often are mentioned together (any may or may not be interrelated) it's certainly a good idea to keep them separated. And you are correct: I don't loose autogen completely. This may be a result of the fact I nearly exclusively fly slow and low. As far as I recall, those "loosing" autogen mostly fly fast airliners.

Kind regards, Michael

[GSalden 4,656]

2 hours ago, AnkH said:

Sorry to say, but you start to drive me nuts. NO, it does NOT only depend on the settings and the power of the PC, as Rob clearly showed with his videos. Did you actually watched them? If you run anything higher than "medium" for "autogen drawing distance" and you combine that with either unlimited FPS or a low FFTF value, you will have problems with autogen loading. That's why I repeat my question again (and again, and again, and again...): does the FFTF Dynamic tool overcome this or is the autogen loading hampered due to the initial low FFTF value?

@pmb As the videos of Rob indicate, limiting the FPS only works if you not play around with the FFTF value in parallel. Did you check that you have no FFTF entry in your config or at least 0.33?

I did not watch the vids as I do not suffer from blurries or dissappearing AG and I use a low FFTF.

Don’t worry I won’t try to help you again ....

[pmb 5,137]

42 minutes ago, GSalden said:

I did not watch the vids as I do not suffer from blurries or dissappearing AG and I use a low FFTF.

Don’t worry I won’t try to help you again ....

Sorry, perhaps I'd have said this in other words...😉

Anyway, from what I observed myself and read from others who actually are observing it, the patchy autogen issue does indeed seem to be independent from the machine power vs. settings thing - while it's often suggested to lower settings, get a better machine, overclock etc. in a general way.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited August 15, 2018 by pmb

[newtie 533]

1 hour ago, pmb said:

While these two issues often are mentioned together (any may or may not be interrelated) it's certainly a good idea to keep them separated. And you are correct: I don't loose autogen completely. This may be a result of the fact I nearly exclusively fly slow and low. As far as I recall, those "loosing" autogen mostly fly fast airliners.

Kind regards, Michael

Michael-

Are you running an AM?

Also, post your cfg.

[pmb 5,137]

No, no AM.

Here's my prepar3d.cfg

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STATE=
CITY=
GTL_BUTTON=4096

[MISC]
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[MULTIPLAYER]
FrameSyncRate=0
 

 

[SteveW 1,792]

If you get  issues with No AM and HT Off you may as well set up a proper AM and forget investigating AMs and HT - my rig work fine on two HT LPs of two cores - it just takes longer to load. If you use too many cores you saturate your memory bandwidth especially with many cored PCs.

You have to learn to fly the PC as you do the Plane - don't cut corners or you crash.

[SteveW 1,792]

...excerpt from my site:

"Enable HT, enable LPs until the sim stops loading any faster, keep to single LPs per core unless they are purely gathering data. With lesser cores available we can gang up two LPs per core, but this intensifies workload on the core and extra work done = extra heat made. So be sure to moderate the overclock setting to accommodate HT enabled. HT off is no competition with the proper Affinity Mask applied. Remember that simply using all the cores in your brand new 32 core CPU will oversaturate the bus using up all the memory bandwidth and slow down the sim, perhaps gradually throughout the flight getting worse. Vsync=on Unlimited and Monitor refresh of 60Hz gives ~60 fps holding back the sim. Locked fps keeps a look ahead and is more taxing on the system. Unlimited with VSync=Off runs faster than the monitor refresh if it can and all those frames are unused = excess heat. Therefore Unlimited set alone is simply a debugging mode or performance check. The Triple Buffer simply means the sim works out the places of moving objects more precisely, but not as well as the fixed fps setting."