Limiting Framerate kills framerate - why?

[SteveW 1,792]

So I'll get a email says something like "the AM I tried didn't help with my problem so I tried another and another and another and another and".... so it's not the AM then .. "and another and another"... stop - I said it's not the AM!

It's not the AM of the sim - so it could well be the way another addon works or combines with other things. AM and HT is a red herring for all those guys that don't understand it. Leave AM and HT off when starting out with your new PC. But waste little time setting it up before adding addons and stuff. Then recheck with your base scenario the loading speed and if it's still not improved dramatically with another LP then LEAVE IT ALONE.

[SteveW 1,792]

4 hours ago, Cargostorm said:

The other side is that at least Aerosoft in general recommended for their airliners to set fps to unlimited (at least this was the case prior to v4.3) in order not to loose performance. Not sure whether PMDG suggested the same for their airliners.

That's never a good idea.

1. Free running the sim on Unlimited with settings that don't enable fps to reach monitor refresh frequency is a mistake.

2. Free running the sim when it easily reaches the monitor refresh is a mistake - all excess frames are lost to heat.

 

 

[SteveW 1,792]

When testing do any of you guys have a dll installed in dll.xml? Because that dll process is done with the instruction pointer of the sim.

Say: each time a custom gauge is set it takes 10ms to calculate - that's sim ms. Say that's done 6 times a second, that's 60ms per frame count. Changing settings doesn't alter that 60ms.

So do your testing with a stock B58, then test complex planes in the mix, only after that add in some fancy AI traffic..

Edited August 15, 2018 by SteveW

[newtie 533]

1 hour ago, pmb said:

No, no AM.

Here's my prepar3d.cfg

[GRAPHICS]
SCREEN_CAPTURE_MAX_JOBS=10
VIDEO_CAPTURE_WIDTH=720
VIDEO_CAPTURE_HEIGHT=480
VIDEO_CAPTURE_FPS=30
VIDEO_CAPTURE_BIT_RATE=3200000
VIDEO_CAPTURE_IS_THREADED=True
VIDEO_CAPTURE_INFO_SEND_RATE=20
VIDEO_CAPTURE_MAX_FRAME_SIZE=500000
VIDEO_CAPTURE_TTL=255
HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.250000
HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000
HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=1.000000
HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000
TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000
TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000
HDR_SATURATION=1.200000
MAX_POINT_LIGHTS=250
MAX_SPOT_LIGHTS=250
ViewGroup_Number=-1
MAP_DRAW_THREADED=1
MIPMAP_VC_PANELS=1
TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD=4096
NUM_LIGHTS=4
COCKPIT_HIGH_LOD=1
AIRCRAFT_REFLECTIONS=1
LANDING_LIGHTS=1
DYNAMIC_LIGHTING=1
DAWN_DUSK_SMOOTHING=1
LENSFLARE=1
HDR=1
DYNAMIC_REFLECTIONS=0
SHADOW_QUALITY=4
SHADOW_DRAW_DISTANCE=3
CONTENT_NO_SHADOW=0
INTERIOR_SHADOWS_CAST=0
EXTERIOR_SHADOWS_CAST=1
SIMOBJECT_SHADOWS_CAST=0
TERRAIN_SHADOWS_CAST=0
VEGETATION_SHADOWS_CAST=0
BUILDING_SHADOWS_CAST=1
CLOUD_SHADOWS_CAST=1
PARTICLES_SHADOWS_CAST=0
INTERIOR_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=0
EXTERIOR_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=0
SIMOBJECT_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=0
TERRAIN_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=1
VEGETATION_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=1
BUILDING_SHADOWS_RECEIVE=1
SHADOW_NUM_CASCADES_LOW=4
SHADOW_NUM_CASCADES_MID=5
SHADOW_NUM_CASCADES_HIGH=7
SHADOW_NUM_CASCADES_ULTRA=12
OPAQUE_SHADOW_TEXTURE_SIZE=2048
TRANSLUCENT_SHADOW_TEXTURE_SIZE=512
OPAQUE_SHADOW_DRAW_DISTANCE=2000
TRANSLUCENT_SHADOW_DRAW_DISTANCE=2000
SHADOW_LOG_PARTITION_LOW=0.850000
SHADOW_LOG_PARTITION_MID=0.850000
SHADOW_LOG_PARTITION_HIGH=0.850000
SHADOW_LOG_PARTITION_ULTRA=0.850000
EFFECTS_QUALITY=2
EFFECTS_DISTANCE=2
TEXTURE_QUALITY=3
IMAGE_QUALITY=0
See_Self=1
RS_MIN_OBJECT_PIXEL_RADIUS=2.000000
Text_Scroll=1

[WEATHER]
CLOUD_FACING_MODE=0
MinGustTime=10
MaxGustTime=500
MinGustRampSpeed=1
MaxGustRampSpeed=200
MinVarTime=5
MaxVarTime=50
MinVarRampSpeed=10
MaxVarRampSpeed=75
TurbulenceScale=1.000000
WeatherGraphDataInDialog=0
AdjustForMagVarInDialog=1
DynamicWeather=0
DownloadWindsAloft=0
DisableTurbulence=0
CLOUD_DRAW_DISTANCE=7
DETAILED_CLOUDS=1
OPTIMIZE_DENSE_CLOUDS=0
CLOUD_COVERAGE_DENSITY=8
THERMAL_VISUALS=0
VolumetricFog=1
DetailedPrecipitation=1
WindshieldPrecipitationEffects=1

[DISPLAY]
ChangeTime=4.000000
TransitionTime=4.000000
TEXTURE_FILTERING=16
MSAA=0
SSAA=8
VSYNC=0
FXAA=0
TRIPLE_BUFFER=0
SKINNED_ANIMATIONS=1
UPPER_FRAMERATE_LIMIT=24
WideViewAspect=True
FullScreenBackground=True
FullScreenAutoFill=True
ActiveWindowTitleTextColor=255,255,255
ActiveWindowTitleBackGroundColor=0,28,140,64
NonActiveWindowTitleTextColor=255,255,255
NonActiveWindowTitleBackGroundColor=24,33,87,64
InfoUpperLeftTextColorUser=255,0,0
InfoUpperLeftTextColorNonUser=255,127,0
InfoUpperLeftBackGroundColor=0,0,0,0
InfoUpperRightTextColor=255,0,0
InfoUpperRightBackGroundColor=0,0,0,0
InfoLowerLeftTextColor=255,255,255
InfoLowerLeftBackGroundColor=255,0,0,128
InfoLowerRightTextColor=255,255,255
InfoLowerRightBackGroundColor=255,0,0,128
InfoBrakesEnable=False
InfoParkingBrakesEnable=False
InfoPauseEnable=True
InfoSlewEnable=False
InfoStallEnable=False
InfoOverspeedEnable=False
InfoWeaponSystemEnable=False
InfoCountermeasureEnable=False
InfoUpperRightTextEnable=True
TextureMaxLoad=3
FULLSCREEN=True
TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=30

[SCENERY]
AUTOGEN_DRAW_DISTANCE=30000.000000
AUTOGEN_TREE_DRAW_DISTANCE_PERCENT=0.900000
AUTOGEN_TREE_MIN_DISTANCE_TO_LOD=2500.000000
POP_FREE_AUTOGEN=1
AUTOGEN_BATCH_LOD=2
AUTOGEN_VEGETATION_TYPE=0
IMAGE_COMPLEXITY=5
MaxRegionsPurgePerFrame=16

[MAIN]
User Objects=Airplane, Helicopter, Submersible, ExternalSim, Avatar
LabelsSupported=Airplane, Helicopter
Location=1200,309,2240,1088,\\.\DISPLAY1
LocationFullScreen=0,0,3440,1440,\\.\DISPLAY1
ShowInfoText=1
Maximized=1
HideMenuNormal=0
HideMenuFullscreen=1

[PANELS]
IMAGE_QUALITY=1
SAVE_AND_LOAD_PANEL_STATE=0
MAX_VC_TEXTURE_RESOLUTION=4096
PANEL_OPACITY=100
QUICKTIPS=1
PANEL_MASKING=1
PANEL_STRETCHING=1
UNITS_OF_MEASURE=0
PANELS_ALWAYS_ON_TOP=1

[CONTROLS]
Controls_Default=Standard
Controls_Current=Standard
KBDAIL=64
KBDELEV=64
KBDRUD=64
stick_sensitivity_mode=0

[TextInfo.1]
Latitude=1,1
Longitude=1,2
Altitude=1,3
Heading=1,4
AirSpeed=1,5
AverageFrameRate=1,2
LockedFrameRate=1,3
WindDirectionAndSpeed=1,6

[TextInfo.2]
FrameRate=1,1
LockedFrameRate=1,2
GForce=1,3
FuelPercentage=1,4
Altitude=1,1
Heading=1,2
Latitude=1,2
HealthPoints=1,5

[TextInfo.3]
Latitude=1,1
Longitude=1,2
Altitude=1,3
Heading=1,4
AirSpeed=1,5
WindDirectionAndSpeed=1,6
FrameRate=2,1
LockedFrameRate=2,2
GForce=2,3
FuelPercentage=2,4
HealthPoints=2,5

[SlewTextInfo.1]
Latitude=1,1
Longitude=1,2
Altitude=1,3
Heading=1,4
AirSpeed=1,5

[SlewTextInfo.2]
FrameRate=1,1
LockedFrameRate=1,2
HealthPoints=1,3

[SlewTextInfo.3]
Latitude=1,1
Longitude=1,2
Altitude=1,3
Heading=1,4
AirSpeed=1,5
FrameRate=2,1
LockedFrameRate=2,2
HealthPoints=2,3

[Avatar]
AvatarModeEnabled=1
DefaultAvatar=Airport Male Falconer

[DynamicHeadMovement]
LonAccelOnHeadLon=-0.020000
LonAccelOnHeadPitch=-0.010000
RollAccelOnHeadLat=0.010000
YawAccelOnHeadLat=-0.100000
RollAccelOnHeadRoll=0.100000
MaxHeadAngle=5.000000
MaxHeadOffset=0.300000
HeadMoveTimeConstant=1.000000

[VirtualCopilot]
VirtualCopilotActive=0

[USERINTERFACE]
SHOW_SCENARIO_WINDOW=0
BroadcastGPSData=0
PAUSE_ON_LOST_FOCUS=1
PROMPT_ON_EXIT=0
RestoreTimeOnMove=1
ScreenshotImageFormat=2
SHOW_MISSION_CAPTIONS=0
SITUATION=C:\Users\Michael_Basler_2016\Documents\Prepar3D v4 Files\SIMstarter NG
Map_Orientation=2
ShowMessageText=True

[DISPLAY.Device.NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti.0.0]
Mode=3440x1440x32

[TrafficManager]
AirlineDensity=0
GADensity=0
FreewayDensity=12
ShipsAndFerriesDensity=10
LeisureBoatsDensity=50
IFROnly=0
AIRPORT_SCENERY_DENSITY=0

[AContain]
ShowLabels=0
ShowUserLabel=0
ShowLabelManufacturer=1
ShowLabelModel=1
ShowLabelTailNumber=0
ShowLabelDistance=1
ShowLabelAltitude=1
ShowLabelAirline=0
ShowLabelAirlineAndFlightNumber=0
ShowLabelFlightPlan=0
ShowLabelContainerId=0
ShowLabelAirspeed=0
ShowLabelHeading=0
LabelDelay=1000
LabelColor=FFFF0000
EnableRibbonVisuals=0
ShowRibbonUserObject=0
ShowRibbonUserAvatar=0
ShowRibbonAircraft=0
ShowRibbonGroundVehicles=0
ShowRibbonBoats=0
ShowRibbonAvatars=0
ShowRibbonWeapons=0
ShowRibbonCountermeasures=0
UserObjectRibbonColor=FFFF0000
UserAvatarRibbonColor=FFFF8000
AircraftRibbonColor=FF0000FF
GroundVehicleRibbonColor=FF00FF00
BoatRibbonColor=FF00FFFF
AvatarRibbonColor=FFFFFF00
WeaponRibbonColor=FF800000
CountermeasureRibbonColor=FF640080
RibbonFidelity=5.000000
RibbonMaxDistance=3218.689941

[TERRAIN]
LOD_RADIUS=6.500000
TESSELLATION_FACTOR=90
MESH_RESOLUTION=23
TEXTURE_RESOLUTION=29
AUTOGEN_VEGETATION_DENSITY=5
AUTOGEN_BUILDING_DENSITY=5
DETAIL_TEXTURE=1
HIGH_RESOLUTION_TERRAIN_TEXTURES=1
WATER_REFLECT_CLOUDS=0
WATER_REFLECT_USERAIRCRAFT=0
WATER_REFLECT_SIMOBJECTS=0
WATER_REFLECT_TERRAIN=0
WATER_REFLECT_AUTOGEN_VEGETATION=0
WATER_REFLECT_AUTOGEN_BUILDINGS=0
WATER_REFRACT_CLOUDS=0
WATER_REFRACT_USERAIRCRAFT=0
WATER_REFRACT_SIMOBJECTS=0
WATER_REFRACT_TERRAIN=0
WATER_REFRACT_AUTOGEN_VEGETATION=0
WATER_REFRACT_AUTOGEN_BUILDINGS=0
ENABLE_BATHYMETRY=0
WATER_CLARITY=30
WATER_DETAIL=4
TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10
UseGlobalTerrainView=False

[ATC]
AutoOpenAirTrafficWindow=1
UsePilotVoice=1
ShowATCText=1
PilotVoice=0
COMM_MSG_AI_ATC_COLOR=0XFF8C00
COMM_MSG_ATC_AI_COLOR=0X00008B
COMM_MSG_ATC_USER_COLOR=0X006400
COMM_MSG_USER_ATC_COLOR=0XA52A2A
COMM_MSG_ATIS_COLOR=00000000

[INTERNATIONAL]
ASLAT=2
ASLON=1
MEASURE=0

[REALISM]
PFactor=1.000000
Torque=1.000000
GyroEffect=1.000000
CrashTolerance=1.000000
General=1.000000
UnlimitedFuel=False
AllowEngineDamage=True
TrueAirspeed=False
AutoCoord=False
RealMixture=True
StressDamage=True
GEffect=True
ManualLights=True
GyroDrift=False
CrashWithDyn=True
CrashDetection=False
AvatarNoCollision=False
MomentumEffect=True
OnCrashAction=0

[ATTACHMENTS]
WeaponHighlight=False
HighlightDuration=1.000000
AutoWeaponSwitching=False
UnlimitedWeapons=False
UnlimitedCountermeasures=False
IgnoreAttachmentWeight=True
IgnoreAttachmentForces=True

[RECORDER]
RecordAITraffic=True
RecordAirportVehicles=True
RecordLeisureBoats=True

[SIM]
SYSCLOCK=0
OPTIMIZE_PARTS=1

[SOUND]
SOUND=1
SOUND_QUALITY=2
SOUND_LOD=0
PrimaryPlaybackDevice={DEF00000-9C6D-47ED-AAF1-4DDA8F2B5C03}
VoicePlaybackDevice={DEF00002-9C6D-47ED-AAF1-4DDA8F2B5C03}
VoiceCaptureDevice={DEF00003-9C6D-47ED-AAF1-4DDA8F2B5C03}

[STARTUP]
DEMO=0
STARTUP_DEMO=
LOAD_SCENARIO_TOOLS=1
LoadCorePlugins=1
LoadVirtualReality=1
EnableVirtualRealityOnStartup=0
EnableVoiceControl=0
LoadWindow=1

[PointOfInterestSystem]
CycleSetting=0

[FACILITIES]
COUNTRY=
STATE=
CITY=
GTL_BUTTON=4096

[MISC]
Com_Rate=7
[MULTIPLAYER]
FrameSyncRate=0
 

 

A quick overview...

TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD=4096  (Way high)
SSAA=8 (This would drive my performance to somewhere between 5-10 fps, and I have a fast machine)
TextureMaxLoad=3 (Why did you do this? Default is 6!)
[DISPLAY.Device.NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti.0.0]
Mode=3440x1440x32 (You're running a very high resolution)
HIGH_RESOLUTION_TERRAIN_TEXTURES=1 (Lose this)

Delete and rebuild your cfg. No AV, no weather, stock settings.

Cheers,

Mark

[pmb 5,137]

Just now, newtie said:

A quick overview...

TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD=4096  (Way high)
SSAA=8 (This would drive my performance to somewhere between 5-10 fps, and I have a fast machine)
TextureMaxLoad=3 (Why did you do this? Default is 6!)
[DISPLAY.Device.NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti.0.0]
Mode=3440x1440x32 (You're running a very high resolution)
HIGH_RESOLUTION_TERRAIN_TEXTURES=1 (Lose this)

Delete and rebuild your cfg. No AV, no weather, stock settings.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

at first: I don't have much performance issues in general. Which may partially be a result of shifting quite some load to a networked 2nd machine (and this way I don't have any virtual cockpit on screen).

I already tried lowering TML to 1024. I tried lowering AA. I tried  unchecking HIGH_RESOLUTION_TERRAIN_TEXTURES=1 (and removing TEXTURE_SIZE_EXP=10). I am sorry, but all this didn't help with the specific issue of patchy autogen loading.

I also rebuilt the prepar3d.cfg. This actually DID resolve issue - as long as I didn't raise the autogen distance slider higher than medium afterwards, where it re-appeared.

While I now use Skyforce clouds, those on my LM forum videos a year ago were stock - and autogen was patchy despite.

Any yes, I tried switching off AV (Bitdefender) which didn't help either.

Kind regards, Michael

[pmb 5,137]

To add: I have been chasing this patchy autogen issue for more than a year now, and I tried quite an eytended number of settings (including HT on/off and a couple of AMs as well, btw). I now start to loose confidence it can be improved on my end.

There have been running 3, 4, 5... or even more long threads on this on the LM forum where Rob McCarthy promised they understood and will look into the issue. The result so far was nil.

But I feel this does deviate too much from the original post, thus I think I shouldn't pursue it here any further.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited August 15, 2018 by pmb

[newtie 533]

TextureMaxLoad=3

What about this?

[pmb 5,137]

14 minutes ago, newtie said:

TextureMaxLoad=3

What about this?

Not sure in this case where it comes from, but I'll see if removing the entry helps. 

Kind regards, Michael

 

[Christopher Low 5,353]

Quote

1. Free running the sim on Unlimited with settings that don't enable fps to reach monitor refresh frequency is a mistake.

2. Free running the sim when it easily reaches the monitor refresh is a mistake - all excess frames are lost to heat.

So what is the solution, Steve? Framerates vary quite a bit depending on where you are in the sim world, so Unlimited will never reliably match the monitor refresh frequency at all times. If I decide to limit the framerate to (for example) 25 on my PC, framerates in very dense scenery areas (and I don't do sparse or medium settings) will drop significantly lower than they would be when using Unlimited. That is not a great solution when framerates in some areas are already struggling to get past 15-20.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Christopher Low

[SteveW 1,792]

22 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

So what is the solution, Steve? Framerates vary quite a bit depending on where you are in the sim world, so Unlimited will never reliably match the monitor refresh frequency at all times. If I decide to limit the framerate to (for example) 25 on my PC, framerates in very dense scenery areas (and I don't do sparse or medium settings) will drop significantly lower than they would be when using Unlimited. That is not a great solution when framerates in some areas are already struggling to get past 15-20.

Limit to 25 how?

With the locked setting on the slider? That's not just a limiter, since it builds look ahead frames it's just like Unlimited in that it starts to draw the next frame right away.

Since the sim wobbles it will be replenishing look ahead frames all the time unless turned right down on the settings. The only limit is a limiter or a VSync=On limit to the monitor frequency. And couple that with not too much settings so your main core is less than 100%. Otherwise you are using another kind of setup - whereby the sim never reaches monitor refresh and is never relaxed.

[SteveW 1,792]

2 hours ago, SteveW said:

1. Free running the sim on Unlimited with settings that don't enable fps to reach monitor refresh frequency is a mistake.

2. Free running the sim when it easily reaches the monitor refresh is a mistake - all excess frames are lost to heat.

Locked on the in-sim slider is not a limit.

Limit with VSync=On or reduce the locked fps rate and reduce settings.

Or simply have a sim running as fast as it can all the time is just another way of setting up - like a game rather than a simulation. Only the locked setting at a rate that can be maintained is a simulation.

[onebob 125]

58 minutes ago, pmb said:

Not sure in this case where it comes from, but I'll see if removing the entry helps. 

TextMaxLoad is used (when using unlimited frames) to calculate the data to be processed. The default value is 6.  TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT is used in the calculation for data when a TFR has been adopted.

When changing the frame rate it will change the amount of data to be processed unless you change the TFR as well.

bob

[SteveW 1,792]

...so to cut a long story short - limiting  fps kills framerate because it's not a limit and it has to build look-ahead frames as well as your regular frame. It kills fps because the CPU cannot run faster than 100%.

Say you are climbing at full throttle, you can't climb more during a down-drought so your altitude reduces accordingly.

Your fps reduces when your CPU is at 100% on the main core and more demand comes in with the scene changing.

 

 

[American 833 Heavy 132]

2 hours ago, SteveW said:

...excerpt from my site:

"Enable HT, enable LPs until the sim stops loading any faster, keep to single LPs per core unless they are purely gathering data. With lesser cores available we can gang up two LPs per core, but this intensifies workload on the core and extra work done = extra heat made. So be sure to moderate the overclock setting to accommodate HT enabled. HT off is no competition with the proper Affinity Mask applied. Remember that simply using all the cores in your brand new 32 core CPU will oversaturate the bus using up all the memory bandwidth and slow down the sim, perhaps gradually throughout the flight getting worse. Vsync=on Unlimited and Monitor refresh of 60Hz gives ~60 fps holding back the sim. Locked fps keeps a look ahead and is more taxing on the system. Unlimited with VSync=Off runs faster than the monitor refresh if it can and all those frames are unused = excess heat. Therefore Unlimited set alone is simply a debugging mode or performance check. The Triple Buffer simply means the sim works out the places of moving objects more precisely, but not as well as the fixed fps setting."

 

Longtime Simmer/Developer here. Pardon my ignorance but what's LP?

I actually just upgraded from the AMD TR 16 Core 1950X which I got in Aug 2017 to the just released 32 Core 2990WX. Ran the 1950X without HT so it was just the 16 cores. But giving HT a go on the 2990WX for 64 threads. Multitasking and speed of Audio/Video encoding is absolutely amazing.

No plans to overclock it as it will go up to 4.2 on its own even though I have a great TR specific liquid cooler. Running my 32GB of DDR4 at 3333 and CL15 with SLI 1080TIs.

Unlimited as always been the smoothest experience for me. Even when I had 3+ yr i7 3770K build until last Summer. As whenever I set to 30fps I basically get half the FPS I normally get.

In FSX and now P3Dv4 I have always gotten the best experience with no Affinity Mask setting and Unlimited FPS with Vsync Off in the Sim but with it Set in NI.

I did get issues when running time accleration on my 1950X after about 10 minutes of 4x the ground starts getting very blurry when doing long haul flight tests. And I have to refresh the scenery when going back to 1x.

From what I've gathered from this thread (I run a 27" Dell TFT U2711 w/ DP at 60hz) limiting to 30 FPS with FFTF of 0.15 for the best balance of frames and texture/autogen would be ideal? I have never tried using the FFTF setting when limiting FPS. Perhaps that's why It never worked out for me.

Also I can run at 30hz but find the sluggishness of the mouse unacceptable to me when not in FS and switching back and forth not practical. But have used the 60hz with half refresh rate Vsync in Nvidia Inspector as that has provided a very smooth experience even with unlimited FPS in P3Dv4.

I'm gonna try limiting to 30fps and playing with FFTF.

 

Great Thread.

[SteveW 1,792]

LP = Logical Processor currently regular desktops we have two per core. If either LP of a core shows 100% and even if the other LP is at 0% - that core is at 100%. (HT Enabled)

Edited August 15, 2018 by SteveW