Limiting Framerate kills framerate - why?

[SteveW 1,792]

Eventually I'll be getting some more hardware and do a few graphs on new kit. Anyway during the product Beta I did some tests and basically works the same Unlimited or limited. The sim renders the same even though there's a fraction of one part to another since each part has to complete to a certain extent. Here's a graph approaching EHAM with Fixed or Locked on the slider:

Edited August 19, 2018 by SteveW

[SteveW 1,792]

...just waiting for someone to say "but I don't want to use locked!"

In the test the Locked setting is used simply because it shows what the FFTF changes can accomplish. Another graph might just be a wobbly mess and may not show the way things are helped. Unlimited+VSync=On achieves a similar result.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, edpatino said:

I'm also interested to hear about Rob's tests and further comments.

I couldn't get this product (Dynamic  FFTF) to work well in the more demanding cases for my needs, I ended up reverting back to a static TFR=31 and Vsync On.  Some areas where Dynamic FFTF didn't really help and resulted in blurries and missing or obvious slow batching of AG were in Orbx SoCal with KLAX and KSAN ... I had to set Dynamic FFTF FPS ranges so low or not permit the FFTF value to drop below 0.33 in order to keep AG and no blurries ... which defeated the purpose for my needs.  As soon as I drop below 30 FPS it wasn't smooth ... only way to smooth things out was to reduce graphics settings (no surprise there).

This is just my experience as I know there are plenty of happy users of this product, there are some situation (more remote areas) where Dynamic FFTF helped but overall but I found myself constantly adjusting Dynamic FFTF to get the desired results I wanted and this is NOT how I like to fly ... I'd rather just suffer the FPS drop know my AG is always there and no blurries.

Cheers, Rob.

[edpatino 1,960]

1 hour ago, joepoway said:

I’m a little confused by your reply Ed.

Are you saying you think it does work even when frames are set to unlimited?

My belief is it does function even with frames set to unlimited which is not the case when you don’t use this dynamic tool.

Joe, I'm not saying it would not work. What I'm suggesting without knowing more, is that in case FFTF goes up from 0,01, P3D it will work as is your frames were locked, even if you set them as unlimited, and that's why so far I have them locked.

After reading your posts, seems that you've tried FFTF Dynamic with frames set to unlimited with success. I'll try this on my setup tonight.

Thanks, Ed

[edpatino 1,960]

44 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I ended up reverting back to a static TFR=31 and Vsync On

Thanks, Rob. And in your case, do you keep FFTF constant at 0,33 (default)?.

Cheers, Ed

 

[SteveW 1,792]

1 hour ago, Rob Ainscough said:

static TFR

What do you mean exactly Rob - static TFR?

[joepoway 241]

38 minutes ago, edpatino said:

Joe, I'm not saying it would not work. What I'm suggesting without knowing more, is that in case FFTF goes up from 0,01, P3D it will work as is your frames were locked, even if you set them as unlimited, and that's why so far I have them locked.

After reading your posts, seems that you've tried FFTF Dynamic with frames set to unlimited with success. I'll try this on my setup tonight.

Thanks, Ed

I actually run Unlimited, Vsync on and TB on. I have a 4K 30 Hz monitor and the Vsync on clips my frames to 30 to match my monitor. I also use the height settings for Dynamic FFTF and run 200 - 7000ft with 0.01 - 0.40 for FFTF settings.

Again my original post was to make sure the Dynamic Tool worked with Unlimited and the consensus seems to be it works with settings of unlimited and fixed frames even though FFTF config settings without using this tool apparently do not get recognized when running unlimited. I’m still a bit surprised this tools allows changes real-time when Unning unlimited but it must process things differently.

I will have to further investigate Rob’s findings with unlimited settings exasperating the AG issues we are seeing and perhaps switch to a locked frames setting of 30 or 31.

Joe

[SteveW 1,792]

8 minutes ago, joepoway said:

I actually run Unlimited, Vsync on and TB on. I have a 4K 30 Hz monitor and the Vsync on clips my frames to 30 to match my monitor. I also use the height settings for Dynamic FFTF and run 200 - 7000ft with 0.01 - 0.40 for FFTF settings.

Again my original post was to make sure the Dynamic Tool worked with Unlimited and the consensus seems to be it works with settings of unlimited and fixed frames even though FFTF config settings without using this tool apparently do not get recognized when running unlimited. I’m still a bit surprised this tools allows changes real-time when Unning unlimited but it must process things differently.

I will have to further investigate Rob’s findings with unlimited settings exasperating the AG issues we are seeing and perhaps switch to a locked frames setting of 30 or 31.

Joe

 

"even though FFTF config settings without using this tool apparently do not get recognized when running unlimited."

FFTF is 'recognosed' with unlimited and it's been all over AVSIM before:

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by SteveW

[joepoway 241]

11 minutes ago, SteveW said:

 

"even though FFTF config settings without using this tool apparently do not get recognized when running unlimited."

FFTF is 'recognosed' with unlimited and it's been all over AVSIM before:

 

Hi Steve 

Perhaps I misunderstood the two other individuals within this post including Rob’s statement below:

No, in P3D when you switch from TFR = Unlimited (which is essentially operating the FFTF = 0.01) to 40 then you are now operating/using the FFTF = 0.33 (default unless you've modified it) ... with TFR = Unlimited the FFTF value defined in your Prepar3d.cfg is NOT used.  With with TFR = 40 and FFTF 0.33 is essentially saying I want 1/3 of your processing time to render autogen and terrain tiles.  From the numbers you've listed that's exactly what is happening.

 

I will say I have seen as many posts on this forum over the years and on LM forum as well that state otherwise that’s why I’m a bit confused as are others.

However you state unequivocally it works regardless of whether one uses unlimited or locked frames so it must be so end of discussion I presume.

Joe

 

[glider1 90]

9 hours ago, joepoway said:

Regarding the use of Vsync and triple buffering in VR I have a question.

I use an Oculus an Rift and will at times monitor frame rates with the Oculus   debug tool using the heads up display. I have always disabled Vsync and Triple Buffering but do run Unlimited. Even with Vsync disabled I see the same results where the Rift automatically seeks out multiples of 90 as you say with Vsync enabled.

I clearly could be wrong but I was under the impression that when in VR mode at least with my Rift it automatically Vysyncs to the headset desired multiples of 90? I also see the same behavior in other sims and any VR games I play in my Oculus library when I monitor actual frames in the headset using the Oculus debug tool.

Now I do see a difference in performance when I tried to lock frames but not with Vsync or TB. 

Additionally I use the debug tool to set my Pixel Density to 1.7 to improve the clarity. Also I use the Dynamic FFTF tool as discussed in this thread but am still curious why it works with an unlimited setting and I hope Rob will confirm with his testing.

Joe

Joe

It is actually a feature of VR. You get the equivalent of the old FSX 1/2 Vsync fullscreen tweak because it is actually running in the VR equivalent of fullscreen mode not having to worry about windowed borderless execution. Because it hardware locks to 45fps, 30fps or 22.5fps you can adjust the settings to match what lock multiple you are aiming for. I don't know why people think VR performance is bad. The drop in visual quality of the headset means you don't have to run as high visual settings and so your performance is still good with the benefits of 3D and 1:1 scale.

[edpatino 1,960]

12 minutes ago, joepoway said:

However you state unequivocally it works regardless of whether one uses unlimited or locked frames so it must be so end of discussion I presume.

Hi Joe:

Tested the tool now on my setup with frames set to unlimited in-sim and it works perfectly well, confirming Steve's statements. I also note, and I think that depends on our own machines and our own hardware in general, the sim is more fluid, as the FPS average was higher compared to my previous test with FPS limited or locked to 27. For the time being, it seems that unlimited is better to me, but I'll continue testing in other areas/aircraft as well.

Thanks to Steve for his excellent posts.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, edpatino said:

And in your case, do you keep FFTF constant at 0,33

Yes, default 0.33.

1 hour ago, SteveW said:

What do you mean exactly Rob - static TFR?

Oops, sorry, static FFTF. 

EDIT: but if FFTF can by dynamic then I would assume TFR could also be dynamic ... I don't know how these values are being modified dynamically since the intent of these values were to be static "during flight" ... if they can be modified via SimConnect or do they require locating offsets in one of LM's EXEs or DLLs? (I can probably discover that for myself, but got too many other things going on right now).

As far as I know (was told by Beau H from LM). TFR = Unlimited setting will ignore any FFTF value.

Cheers, Rob.

EDIT:  If this is working well for others, go for it, I'm not at suggesting this product doesn't work, it just didn't provide the results I wanted to see (my level of expectation).

[joepoway 241]

1 hour ago, glider1 said:

It is actually a feature of VR. You get the equivalent of the old FSX 1/2 Vsync fullscreen tweak because it is actually running in the VR equivalent of fullscreen mode not having to worry about windowed borderless execution. Because it hardware locks to 45fps, 30fps or 22.5fps you can adjust the settings to match what lock multiple you are aiming for. I don't know why people think VR performance is bad. The drop in visual quality of the headset means you don't have to run as high visual settings and so your performance is still good with the benefits of 3D and 1:1 scale.

I have moved to flying 90% of the time to VR and with the single pass rendering option fixed in the latest release I don’t use FlyInside anymore. The realism for me out ways the visual sacrifices and its hard for me to turn back now.

Joe

[joepoway 241]

1 hour ago, edpatino said:

Hi Joe:

Tested the tool now on my setup with frames set to unlimited in-sim and it works perfectly well, confirming Steve's statements. I also note, and I think that depends on our own machines and our own hardware in general, the sim is more fluid, as the FPS average was higher compared to my previous test with FPS limited or locked to 27. For the time being, it seems that unlimited is better to me, but I'll continue testing in other areas/aircraft as well.

Thanks to Steve for his excellent posts.

Cheers, Ed

 

Ed

I also seem to find the Dynamic tool improves my flight experience as well.

Regarding Steve I am also very thankful for his contributions but I felt he assumed I am not well versed in the findings regarding performance, settings, and interactions because I haven’t followed things or haven’t invested the time to do so. Quite the contrary I read virtually everything and am well versed in 5 flight sims as well as optimizations across all of them.

Also I still stand by my statement that there is still debate about how FFTF works in various scenarios even Rob restated his “upstanding for Beau at LM” stating the opposite of Steve’s statement.

I’m not trying to cause problems or state that I know one way another on this issue but there is not consensus as far as I can see. As a retired engineer and flight sim enthusiast I am just trying to fully understand things regarding our wonderful hobby. 

Ironically I believe FFTF does work with a setting of Unlimited at least from what the Dynamic Tool displays and my perception of how the sim performs and Steve’s data!

So Steve I also want to thank you for your ongoing contributions as well as Rob’s!

Joe

[edpatino 1,960]

20 minutes ago, joepoway said:

As a retired engineer and flight sim enthusiast I am just trying to fully understand things regarding our wonderful hobby. 

Hi Joe, thanks for your comments. We're on the same track. I'm also a retired engineer (mechanical) and wants to read almost about everything!.

Will report back if I find something of interest on my upcoming tests with this excellent utility.

Cheers, Ed