Reflections and questions about AFS2

[DrumsArt 270]

Hi,

I started flight simulation in 1982 on Sinclair/ZX Spectrum 48ko!

I have had many simulators since then (All Sublogic, MS Flight simulator, Fly!1 and 2, Flight Unlimited 2 and 3 + many War FlightSims and so and so......)

Currently I am on FSX, P3Dv4.3 and AFS2.

I finally bought AFS2 thinking rightly that it represented something different from the MS and Lockheed Martin line.

Please, I would be very curious to have clear answers to the following questions:

Scenery: currently ORBX has started making scene/airport for AFS2...there will be more. Great!!!

Aircrafts: for which obscure reasons isn't there a single good developer (you know who they are) who seems to have the beginning of a project about AFS2?

My question about aircraft also applies to weather and ATC (I know AFS2 work on...but...). So, why?

Right now my AFS2 is grounded. Of course the Fps are great, I did some interesting VFR flights (following the roads, highways, rivers) then after touring the planes and ORBX scenes + those of AFS2...I must say that I get bored in this hyperrealist, cold and aseptized sim...Lifeless. Just my feel!

Don' get me wrong, I don't regret my purchase, I just wish talented external developers would give a little warmth and life in this promising simulator, but I don't see anything on the horizon that seems to go in that direction. Why?

Thank you and Regards,

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, DrumsArt said:

Aircrafts: for which obscure reasons isn't there a single good developer (you know who they are) who seems to have the beginning of a project about AFS2? 

My question about aircraft also applies to weather and ATC (I know AFS2 work on...but...). So, why?

I think because the user base it still to small and the sim is totally different from other sims. Apparently scenery is rather easy to convert (Orbx!) but planes aren't. One known addon developer, Lionheart Creations, gave it a try a year or so ago but gave up on it. There is one guy whose name I've forgotten who still seems to be working on a plane but I don't know the state of that one.

Another reason, when it comes to ATC and weather, is that IPACS wants to create a lot of things themselves, so it seems. They are currently working on ATC. (Take note, they are NOT working on weather!) It sometimes seems they don't want anyone else to create certain things but then again, they did release an SDK to scenery and planes can be made by others...

So the user base is too small and it takes way too much work... Orbx said that whatever they do for AFS2 now doesn't isn't profitable but they are in it for the future. So we are a bit stuck in a vicious circle: AFS2 doesn't have enough users because it is lacking addons but addon developers won't develop anything for AFS2 because it is lacking users... It seems that IPACS first has to deliver some more of the basics that everyone wants and perhaps then users as well as addon developers will get more interested. But that will take years, that's for sure.

BTW AFS2 has more to offer than just some VFR flights following roads and rivers: it has more features than some think. I mainly fly the Q400 with a checklist that is based on the one from the Majestic Q400 and the Airbus has some pretty nice features also already. But yes, they aren't really study level planes yet. They are usually fine for my needs though. What I miss most is weather.

[HiFlyer 9,358]

2 hours ago, DrumsArt said:

Aircrafts: for which obscure reasons isn't there a single good developer (you know who they are) who seems to have the beginning of a project about AFS2?

Well even if there were, would they announce until they were ready? 

2 hours ago, DrumsArt said:

Don' get me wrong, I don't regret my purchase, I just wish talented external developers would give a little warmth and life in this promising simulator, but I don't see anything on the horizon that seems to go in that direction. Why?

For myself, I still think its early days. My feeling is that the community is very conservative, and one should remember that it took quite a long time for developers to finally turn their sights to even something as complete as X-plane. In fact Orbx is just now dipping their toes in the water.

From that perspective, Aerofly FS2 in its relatively short life has already garnered more payware attention than both MsFlight and FSW, with both Aerosoft and Orbx making steps.

At the same time, there is a small freeware development community already forming, and just within the last week a large freeware scenery was released. Already there are liveries, airports, software tools and etc being created.

All par for the course if one remembers the slow start of our current mainstays from freeware to abundant payware.

Time is the key, and a constant battle over the perception of whether the glass is half full, or half empty.

[pracines 823]

Its also possible that most developers see this project as a "DLC simmers to death for the basics", and that business model always gets shot down by flight simmers. We don't mind DLC, but not for what we have had for decades (whole earth with 24,000+ airports for starters!)

It seems Orbx has the time and capitol to spend or "waste" on unproven projects, but others don't or won't. I'm very glad PMDG did not dive in and develop for FSW before FSW was proven, it would have been a total waste, because the intention was a DLC simmers to death for basics.

I think when a flight sim proves itself to not be totally boring after 30 minutes, and trans-oceanic flights can be done with a good deal of realism with the basic features included, then more 3rd parties begin to look in favor of a flight sim. Until then it gets ignored; none of this backwards ( small areas/basic airplanes ) stuff is tolerated anymore.

I like the fact that AF2 is different than the others , but it needs to be better than the others at more than just VR, but its not; until it is, simmers and developers will wait.

[Murmur 3,941]

As the majority of flight sim users would regularly fly PMDG airliners over transoceanic flights. 🤣 The problem with the self-appointed "serious simmers", is that they think everybody uses flight sims like them. Condorsoaring, DCS, IL2, all of them are very successful sims, and yet none of them allows flying an airliner over a transoceanic flight.

 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, pracines said:

I think when a flight sim proves itself to not be totally boring after 30 minutes, and trans-oceanic flights can be done with a good deal of realism with the basic features included, then more 3rd parties begin to look in favor of a flight sim. Until then it gets ignored; none of this backwards ( small areas/basic airplanes ) stuff is tolerated anymore. 

I like the fact that AF2 is different than the others , but it needs to be better than the others at more than just VR, but its not; until it is, simmers and developers will wait.

Well, you do know there actually are simmers who don't ignore but 'tolerate' AFS2, do you? 😎 Not everyone is waiting. 😉 Not everyone is interested in for instance trans-oceanic flights. There are other ways to enjoy a flightsim. I have to admit I am surprised to see real world pilots and long time simmers being quite enthusiastic about AFS2. And as I said before, not all AFS2 planes are as basic as some think. If a sim needs non-basic planes to become interesting, how did FSX/P3D ever become so big...?

Edited August 29, 2018 by Guest

[HiFlyer 9,358]

Just now, Murmur said:

As the majority of flight sim users would regularly fly PMDG airliners over transoceanic flights. 🤣 The problem with the self-appointed "serious simmers", is that they think everybody uses flight sims like them. Condorsoaring, DCS, IL2, all of them are very successful sims, and yet none of them allows flying an airliner over a transoceanic flight.

 

Very very true.

[edpatino 1,964]

4 hours ago, DrumsArt said:

Currently I am on FSX, P3Dv4.3 and AFS2.

You're doing Ok, in my opinion, Don't get rush about Aerofly FS 2, its complete development to a full flight simulator has taken quite a bit of time and it will take a bit more. In the meantime you have AFS2 to enjoy VFR flights, and you also have P3Dv4.3 to enjoy both VFR and IFR flights with a lot of complex aircraft, fully simulated. You have the best of both worlds and again, you're making the right choice.

Cheers, Ed

 

[pracines 823]

4 hours ago, Murmur said:

As the majority of flight sim users would regularly fly PMDG airliners over transoceanic flights. 🤣 The problem with the self-appointed "serious simmers", is that they think everybody uses flight sims like them. Condorsoaring, DCS, IL2, all of them are very successful sims, and yet none of them allows flying an airliner over a transoceanic flight.

 

Once again you fail to understand. DCS, IL2, CONDOR, whatever have NOTHING on P3D or XPlane or FSX or FS9!

If one can do realistic trans oceanic flights in a flight sim, they WILL be able to soar where they please or do flights in a pattern tour whatever city they wish to. 

BUT if one can ONLY soar or tour a couple locations in a simple plane - they will not be able to do trans oceanic flights.

So self appointed "know it all's", once again, need way too much help understanding 1st grade concepts.  

[pracines 823]

4 hours ago, J van E said:

Well, you do know there actually are simmers who don't ignore but 'tolerate' AFS2, do you? 😎 Not everyone is waiting. 😉 Not everyone is interested in for instance trans-oceanic flights. There are other ways to enjoy a flightsim. I have to admit I am surprised to see real world pilots and long time simmers being quite enthusiastic about AFS2. And as I said before, not all AFS2 planes are as basic as some think. If a sim needs non-basic planes to become interesting, how did FSX/P3D ever become so big...?

I know that FSW is dead. It is dead because of limitations that only a few hundred out of a million simmers tolerated.

Your definition of "everyone" is about 100-300 total people at most.

My definition of everybody is about 800,000-900,000 people. 

I will say it again:

If one can do realistic transoceanic flights in a flight sim, they WILL be able to soar where they please or do flights in a pattern tour whatever city they wish to.  

BUT if one can ONLY soar or do combat or tour a couple locations in a simple plane - they will not be able to do trans oceanic flights.

I favor a sim that takes care of all aviation interests, not the LIMITS of what a small minority tolerates/promotes/defends in AF2 FSW or MS Flight....two already dead.

Yes the VR in AF2 is good. AF2 is not a terrible sim, but its limitations and business model leads it down the FSW & MS Flight (both had their good points too - but NOT good enough) road.  

[Murmur 3,941]

58 minutes ago, pracines said:

Once again you fail to understand. DCS, IL2, CONDOR, whatever have NOTHING on P3D or XPlane or FSX or FS9!

If one can do realistic trans oceanic flights in a flight sim, they WILL be able to soar where they please or do flights in a pattern tour whatever city they wish to. 

BUT if one can ONLY soar or tour a couple locations in a simple plane - they will not be able to do trans oceanic flights.

So self appointed "know it all's", once again, need way too much help understanding 1st grade concepts.  

It is you who fail to undestand. A flight simulator can be successful without necessarily being focused on complex airliners and transatlantic flight. And no, you are NOT able to soar in P3D or XP as realistically as you can in Condorsoaring, as similarly you are NOT able to do combat missions in P3D as realistically as you can do in DCS or IL2.

1st grade concept for the self-appointed "serious simmer": a flight sim can be successful without having magenta line followers as its target users.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Murmur

[shivers9 1,174]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

So self appointed "know it all's", once again, need way too much help understanding 1st grade concepts.

Sir if I may try to help here. Just a few points to ponder.

1. I do not care who you are, you will never win an argument here ...period. Never has happened and never will...that is a fact.

2. If you try to defend your position on anything here with facts then you will only be inciting folly from a small number of folks who will never be intimidated or influenced by truths. They never have and they never will.

3. Some of the contacts that you encounter here on AVSIM spent months trying to make people believe that they would be sent to jail if they even bought Prepar3d. We are talking black helicopters in the night here.

And so just trying to save you more time to sim. I hope you dont mind.

[cimgrp501 30]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

Your definition of "everyone" is about 100-300 total people at most.

What in the world are you talking about Paul; I must have misinterpreted.  In 2003 IL2 had sold over 1.2 million units worldwide, a number many times multiplied now with subsequent iterations. There are numerous advantages other sims have over your favorites, including market leading flight dynamics and dynamic campaigns etc. that Murmur and HiFlyer know more about than I do.

And many advantages of your favorites from your perspective. Even a 1st grader understands the differences in people, their perspectives and interests:)  I get quickly bored programming a PC within a PC (FMC) to program a flawless flight across an endless expanse of ocean.  I would much prefer to "fly" within a dynamic environment. I also understand the perspective and market for those who prefer otherwise.

[HiFlyer 9,358]

1 hour ago, shivers9 said:

If you try to defend your position on anything here with facts then you will only be inciting folly from a small number of folks who will never be intimidated or influenced by truths. They never have and they never will.

What facts/truths? Supported by what? So far what I've seen is mostly unsubstantiated opinion backed up by numbers pulled from thin air, provided to us with an eye opening amount of unjustified certainty.

[KBUR 178]

Don't understand me wrong guys, cause I support AeroflyFS/IPACS since their first release "aerofly FS" in 2012 (even bought its downgraded Version "aerofly Flug Simulator 2013" from publisher Ikarus), and now its current version AFS 2), BUT :

11 hours ago, DrumsArt said:

^{_{Right now my AFS2 is grounded. Of course the Fps are great, I did some interesting VFR flights (following the roads, highways, rivers) then after touring the planes and ORBX scenes + those of AFS2...I must say that I get bored in this hyperrealist, cold and aseptized sim...Lifeless. Just my feel!}}

==> I can understand you sooo well, because the same happens to me with Aerofly FS repetitively since its first release in 2012 !!!!

 

In the following I will quote some advertisements DRHOTWING1 hase done during the last couple of months on steam after crucial AFS 2 updates:
 

Quote

29. September 2017 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=4
....We are very much aware that we have a ways to go here but with your continued support and our teams passion and determination Aerofly will become a force to be reckoned with. It only gets better from here!.......

 

 

Quote

5. Oktober 2017 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=4
......We will continue to update Aerofly FS 2 with more features once this milestone is complete......
We have already come a long way and with our continued passion and determination, and your support, we will continue to build upon this solid foundation to provide our community with the ultimate flying experience. So fasten your seat belts and enjoy the flight. Aerofly will only get better from here. Leaving Early Access isn't the end for Aerofly, It's only the beginning!.......

 

 

Quote

20. November 2017 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=3
........“Every award-winning structure begins with a solid foundation”, and we believe that we now have that.

So, what’s next for Aerofly? The best answer to this question is “plenty”. Now that we have a solid core it’s time to get to work on features. Features will now be our focus moving forward.
Aerofly will continue to be developed, and updates will continue as well.
 

As always, we will continue to aim for the stars in our continuing quest to provide you with the best flight simulator experience around. Look out for some cool new features coming your way such as ATC, advanced motion control ‘VR Hands’, a new logbook feature, more scenery and aircraft, and much more!

You are the reason why we have such passion to succeed, you are the reason for our motivation, and you are the reason why Aerofly Flight Simulator will become the best simulator on the market to date...........

 

 

 

Quote

22. Dezember 2017 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=3
....On behalf of the entire IPACS team, we would like to wish all of you a happy and joyous holiday season. It was a truly remarkable year with many milestones. We look forward to showing what's in store for you in 2018, we are confident that we will set the bar even higher.

Thank you all for sticking with us and for your loyalty. Your support keeps us motivated and determined to make Aerofly even better; and that's what we are going to do!

 

 

 

Quote

31. Januar 2018 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=2

 ......All of this is combined with Aerofly's famous high performance, to ensure the most immersive experience for both traditional and VR simmers.....

 

 

Quote

23. Februar - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=2

......As developers we have a continuing and growing passion for developing Aerofly FS 2 into the best virtual flying experience ever seen, and it's fueled by the growing community that has stood behind us the entire way. We are committed to building upon the solid foundation that we already have, and will continue to build until we have the best flight simulator ever made.......... 

 

 

Quote

29. Juni 2018 - drhotwing1

https://steamcommunity.com/games/434030/announcements?p=2

...We will continue to work hard adding more features and functionality in future updates. As always, we thank you for your overwhelming support while we all work towards the best flight experience around!

We are confident that this update will improve the overall Aerofly FS2 experience and begin building upon a whole new level of quality and control.

 

 

Quotes END !!!!

 

In my own experience - since its beginnings  - Aerofly seems to be the eternally auspicious Flight Sim out there: In many aspects brilliant without doubts, in many ways just a half done beginner !!!!

Just a few basic examples:

• For me TrackIR becomes even worser in AFS 2 compared to its predecessor AFS.  For some reasons TrackIR is always linked to the aircrafts airbrakes and I couldn't get rid of this bug since I bought this sim on Steam more than one year ago.  Even TrackIR doesn't work anymore in the outer views - only in virtual cockpit (exeption is one outer view of the Corsair).  VERY ANNOYING, problems I never had in aerofly FS Version 1 (2012).
• For some reasons the developer decided that the user can't have direct access to Aerofly Missions/flyiing lessons directly, without doing the lesson before successfully.  And they have removed (who knows why) all the funny inflight achievements you could achieve during flying around like in Aerofly FS Version 1 ---> Flying School, Missions - , even no Mission Editor in the new AF Version --- IPACS has completely muddled this very important aspect in their current Version AFS 2.
• Thereby interesting missions - or at least a mission builder - are so important for the end users not to get bored of the game/sim.  A circumstance which concerns a lot of dissatisfied simmers (including myself) if you read diverse forums attentively.
• Why the heck are they not developing a simple drop down menu for straight forward Aiport Selection like in other sims ? (i.e P3D, X-Plane)  I mean it's common sense: the whole scenery becomes bigger and bigger and someone must always do this silly scrolling around on the world-map if you want to find your preferred airport.

 

I've revealed this few points not only because I'm annoyed of these as a customer, but also to show that there are some points they could solve whithout having big budget money or a big developer team behind them likewise.

As another user on AVSIM Aerofly Forum stated (analogous) :

" The developers (Ipacs) have lost their connection to the community/end-user. "

Referring to my own experience with this sim: absolutely, he said the truth! 

 

But I would go even further: To REALITY too !!!!  Because if you read the quotes from drhotwing1 (member of the IPACS Team) above, someone can reflect with common sense that there lies is a big misconception - a big big gap - in what the developer wish for to be and what reality showes up.

They are really far far away from beeing the "....the best simulator on the market " (drhotwing1, aka Jeff) out there.

 

Best regards to all of you, dear simming fellows.

Konrad.

 

PS: English is NOT my mother tongue.

Edited August 30, 2018 by KBUR