The Joy and Anguish...

[sosuflyer 30]

2 minutes ago, kevinh said:

Dumb may be, but the symptoms you describe (not having pitch authority) are exactly what happens in the PMDG sim if you aren't in trim. To test this try keeping the AP engaged until speed is stabilised at Vref+5 then assess the flare handling when truly in trim. Another possibility is to follow Dan's suggestion to display the FBW trimmed speed and see how well trimmed you actually are.

I do display it. That's how I know I'm in trim cause I sure as heck can't feel it like every other plane, sim or IRL. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by sosuflyer

[skelsey 765]

1 minute ago, sosuflyer said:

If the fbw trim is supposed to feel like other traditional planes (minus trimming out thrust) then just make it that way lol. I feel like pmdg out smarted themselves cause if the elevator trim is supposed to feel like a 737, more or less, then make it feel like a 737 

Exactly. See my point to Kev (and his reply) above - in real life my understanding it should essentially feel more or less like a very well-behaved 737, but if PMDG are not introducing a pitch moment to pull/push against when the aircraft is out of trim the odd feel you describe makes total sense as you wouldn't be able to feel that the aircraft is out of trim or the effect of running in the trim whilst the controls are deflected.

[kevinh 409]

38 minutes ago, sosuflyer said:

I do display it. That's how I know I'm in trim cause I sure as heck can't feel it like every other plane, sim or IRL. 

Well then I'm at a loss to explain why you run out of control authority. I don't have that feeling at all flying the PMDG 777, only if out of trim. I never use the FBW speed index option, I think it's a distraction, and don't have any problems trimming.

Edit: I remembered something you could try. After redesigning the FBW PMDG provided pitch and roll control null zone settings in the CDU which switch the FBW trimming model from one mode to another. If the pitch input is less than the null zone value it will be in a pitch stabilised mode which could fight your input. See the Introduction Manual, p92.

Edited September 3, 2018 by kevinh

[downscc 1,327]

2 hours ago, sosuflyer said:

Which means how am I supposed to know if I have applied enough trim if I can't "feel" the changes

No... there are no forces to trim in the sim world.  The 777 trim must be used to trim for speed.  Forget trying to trim to change pitch forces.  I think it's been said at least four times in this thread:  Trim for speed.  For example, on final in landing configuration the trim speed indicator should be at Vref+5 or whatever your target speed happens to be.  Don't try to use trim during flare or landing, trim is not used for flare.

[Christopher Low 5,341]

Quote

As to your first point - that may be related as if you are not in trim I think I recall that PMDG simulated the out of trim forces by reducing elevator authority

When I disconnect the Autothrottle on final approach, I am stabilised. Surely this means that the trim is correct for that airspeed?

[sosuflyer 30]

30 minutes ago, downscc said:

No... there are no forces to trim in the sim world.  The 777 trim must be used to trim for speed.  Forget trying to trim to change pitch forces.  I think it's been said at least four times in this thread:  Trim for speed.  For example, on final in landing configuration the trim speed indicator should be at Vref+5 or whatever your target speed happens to be.  Don't try to use trim during flare or landing, trim is not used for flare.

Trust me, I understand everything being said. I fly GA IRL, so I know not to use trim for flare. I never said I did do that. It's just that if pilots of the 777 say trimming the airplane feels like every other plane, then why is it so hard to do in the sim vs the 737 or 747. That's all. I know they're trying to replicate all this fancy fbw, but I should be able to trim on the fly like every other aircraft in flight sim where I "feel" the trim changing how much pressure I have on my stick. 

2 hours ago, kevinh said:

Well then I'm at a loss to explain why you run out of control authority. I don't have that feeling at all flying the PMDG 777, only if out of trim. I never use the FBW speed index option, I think it's a distraction, and don't have any problems trimming.

Edit: I remembered something you could try. After redesigning the FBW PMDG provided pitch and roll control null zone settings in the CDU which switch the FBW trimming model from one mode to another. If the pitch input is less than the null zone value it will be in a pitch stabilised mode which could fight your input. See the Introduction Manual, p92.

Ok I'll check that out. That rings a bell. It's been a few years since I've read anything in the intro manual, although it is the first thing I read with any PMDG product

[downscc 1,327]

1 hour ago, sosuflyer said:

It's just that if pilots of the 777 say trimming the airplane feels like every other plane, then why is it so hard to do in the sim vs the 737 or 747.

It is supposed to be as natural as the 737/747 but I agree with you in that it is not. It is not a perfect implementation and I think PMDG has this on a wish list of things for improvement.  I fly this product often and it gives me grief sometimes when I am changing speeds in the terminal environment.  She can be difficult but I think if you stick to the trim for speed approach it is workable.

Edited September 3, 2018 by downscc

[BlueStar 323]

2 hours ago, sosuflyer said:

I never said I did do that. It's just that if pilots of the 777 say trimming the airplane feels like every other plane,

A couple of things to consider.  When the aircraft is being flown by the autopilot, it is in trim.  Use the yoke to set the deck angle, it will be in trim, that's how the B777 FBW works.  As has been said earlier, trim for speed. 🙂

One thing you might try when flying your sim is something that I have carried over from my real world flying is to use FLC for speed/altitude control when below ten thousand feet. 

[ahuimanu 50]

10 hours ago, downscc said:

Focus on the far end of the runway will fix this.

Thank you Dan.

I do mention this as being my practice in my first post here - it's been so since both my earliest days of simming and in obtaining a PPL.

I can almost always smoothly lay the 744F onto the runway with the proper visual technique whereas with the 777F, it always feels twitchy.

[ahuimanu 50]

Thanks for the great discussion - wish come true and I hope it continues.

I am not sure if it is trim as I keep the "fake" indicator on and move to hand-flying after the glide slope is captured and the approach is otherwise stabe. I experience more of what william talks about in terms of "disconnected" pitch feel versus control inputs.

my observation from the LIMC landing this morning - around 1300Z: 

• On short final to 35R, I was relatively stable from ~1,500 ft AGL 
• At around 50 ft AGL, the runway threshold was certainly well under the nose and my eyes were down the runway towards the end (best to gauge sink rate)
• Despite the always-present slight "disconnected" feel between the stick and pitch response, I was able to get about 3 degrees of nose up.
• I still made the mistake of flaring and reducing throttle at the same time
• I think the manual suggests we flare, and only then reduce throttle so as to touchdown coming to Vref, but I still do them both together instinctively
• I got a 200fpm landing, which was fine (the landing sound is softer in the 777 when you land at normal-ish speeds).

However, the feel remains wrong - I can only use the term "slightly disconnected." I love the 777 as a compliment to my heavy-iron flying, but the last 50 feet are problematic.

If I were doing the same approach in the 744, I would have greased it on like a pat of butter on a warm griddle.

I have the null zones for CTRL Wheel and CTRL Column down to 1%.  These were SP1 additions the bird in 2015 I believe.

To add some additional thought to the discussion on trim: I find that I have to work much harder to get the 777F back into the LOC/GS "groove" when the speed isn't right.  This gives some credibility to the "trim for speed" aspect of this discussion.  I guess I'm being stubborn about hand-flying as maybe speed stability is required in order to have pitch behave "like a Cessna." I honestly find that the 777 autopilot will "hunt" much more regarding speed as opposed to the B744.

REQUEST

Will a self-professed "guru" of the PMDG 777 please provide a talk-through and/or video on how to do it right? I've watched Kyle's B777F tip video, but he autolands it, which doesn't help in this case.

Thanks.

Edited September 4, 2018 by ahuimanu

[downscc 1,327]

15 hours ago, ahuimanu said:

Will a self-professed "guru" of the PMDG 777 please provide a talk-through and/or video on how to do it right?

That request is going to turn off a lot of folks that might otherwise want to share because "self-professed guru" comes across as a put down to anyone that knows more than you.  I do not claim to know more than you but I am willing to share how to land the 777.

I just completed a session flying the B77L KORD ZBAA where I though of this request as I made the landing so I took note of my actions.  Pretty simple airmanship.  Flown a coupled approach down to 1000 AGL where aircraft was stabilized in landing configuration (Flaps 30 A/T and A/P) and disconnected A/P.  Hand flew using F/D down to 500 AGL and went visual. Hand flown visually on the PAPI until about 100 AGL when landing assured and maintained that attitude (picture) focused on far end of runway until about 30 AGL callout when I slowly stop the descent by adding flare and she lands and I put the nose down as I'm going into reverse thrust.

Note I never touched the trim.  The trim speed bug was aligned with Vref+5 and the A/T speed bug.

Note I didn't "measure" how much flare to use, rather I measured my rate of descent and controlled that with flare.

Neither did I measure my rate of descent at landing.  Not necessary.  You know before you land if it is going to be a good one or not.

This entire discussion on trim and landing misses the point.  You trim for speed not pitch.  My speed remains on Vref+5 therefore my trim doesn't change.

Edited September 4, 2018 by downscc

[BlueStar 323]

21 hours ago, ahuimanu said:

Will a self-professed "guru" of the PMDG 777 please provide a talk-through and/or video on how to do it right? I've watched Kyle's B777F tip video, but he autolands it, which doesn't help in this case.

That wouldn't be me, but I spend a lot of time at the hockey rink with a B777 Captain that that I can ask if someone has a question that is not sufficiently addressed by forum members similar to the brake questions. 🙂

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bluestar

[ahuimanu 50]

Thank you for the fresh perspectives.  No insult is intended with the "guru" part and I'll take input from gurus of any acclaim, ascent, or demeanor.  Dan, yours is a good description and perhaps my stubborn desire to turn off A/T as well is something to contemplate. I too do not actually closely look at the pitch on the PFD as much as the sight picture.

Wilhelm, I am very interested in your or your hockey buddy's insight.

 

 

[ahuimanu 50]

Well, I guess this petered out.  😀 There were some good reflections here though and I've thought about them more.

Since a fair bit of landing wisdom suggests that the approach dictates the landing, I am noticing that when to go from flight-director and instruments to PAPI and visual references is another factor.  My point is that any changes in wind and/or moving from the ILS guidance to visual guidance, means some reconfiguration in power, pitch attitude and roll.  Since my signature belies what I spend 95% of my simming time flying, it is worth noting differences between the queen and the triple seven.

First, I've changed my pattern recently to stick to the 777F or 744F for about a week at at time to pay better attention to characteristics of handling.

First off, HANDS DOWN (no pun), the 744F's hand-flying characteristics are so satisfyingly smooth and direct, that it is like a breath of fresh air when I transition to it from the 777F.  For instance, over the last 3 days I've landed the 744F in EHAM, ZBAA, and PANC in a variety of conditions and all landings have been extremely satisfying with a nice touchdown in the "zone" and immediate and firm deployment of ground spoilers, auto-brake and reverse thrust.

I contrast with my log book from the prior 7 days, all in the 777F, and all manner of weirdness was afoot.  Angst-ridden moments like: 

• I've touched down, why can't I keep the reverse thrust engaged? 
• why do the auto-brakes tend to trip and disable more readily? 
• why do control inputs seem to not result in immediate reaction from the aircraft (the nose won't lift).

I suppose I will soon need video evidence and I'll gather that and post in a fresh thread.

In any case, the 777F seems to get away from the glideslope and localizer more readily than the 744F.  However, I realize that only a controlled test, in similar circumstances and conditions, could substantiate these anecdotal observations. However, I've flow the wings off these two aircraft highly frequently over the last 18 months and I want to enjoy the 777F as much as the 744F.

Which leads me to make my request again: ANY talk-throughs/walk-throughs (or videos) of successful approach and landing habits in the 777 would be welcome.  As I mentioned earlier, Kyle on the PMDG team had a good 777F tips video, but he does an automated approach and landing in that, so it isn't helping my "hand fly from 1500 feet" quest here.

Perhaps, as Dan noted above, I came across as snarky before - it wasn't my intent. I would really like to hear from someone who likes to hand-fly, with manual throttle control, their approaches. Perhaps there is some technique advice that would provide me with a break through. I  can certainly gather my logbook to substantiate the recent experience.

Perhaps there is some analysis software I could use?  I know the built-in stuff is good in P3D, but I don't think its monitoring in the background?

Teach me sensei!

Edited September 13, 2018 by ahuimanu