What is going on with flight simulators?

[skelsey 765]

1 hour ago, honanhal said:

I can be grateful that we have folks producing quality addons and at the same time understand that addons have gotten massively more expensive since FS98

In fairness: most everything in life has got more expensive since 1998, from flight sim add-ons to a pint of milk. Given the general rise in the cost of living/doing business across the board over the last 20 years, I don't think the price of add-ons has really gone up that much out of proportion. If anything, quite the opposite: according to the UK Office for National Statistics, prices have gone up around 70% since then across the board.

Nothing is perfect, of course -- but it's very easy to forget what we had then and what we have now. Even the idea of something like GSX with actual moving, functioning pushback tugs or visible wing-walkers, AI traffic, in-sim ATC, flyable virtual cockpits etc were virtually unthinkable in 1998, let alone the astonishing level of complexity and realism we now enjoy in terms of aircraft systems modelling, visuals (jetways, anybody -- let alone moving ones!), scenery (for the princely sum of £30 to Orbx I can now use an actual UK CAA VFR chart to navigate visually across England without any recourse to the GPS, picking out actual landmarks and places that I know from the virtual skies, and that one-off sum has given me this across not just one platform but four -- FSX, FSX-SE, P3Dv3 and P3Dv4!). How much was it to buy multiple CDs worth of photographic VFR scenery for FS98 that was totally flat (no autogen and very limited 3D objects back then, remember)?

It's easy to forget the sheer number of man-hours that go in to creating some of these complex add-ons. Think about how much it would cost you to hire a decent software developer per hour, and the number of months and years that go in to crafting something like the FSLabs A320 or the PMDG B747. Even less complex add-ons like the Aerosoft A320 -- think about how many people have been working on those products and for how long, and then do the maths. It will quite rapidly become apparent that if you want to make a small fortune in flight simming, it's best to start out with a large fortune first :)

[berts 97]

45 minutes ago, Bigt said:

I got a very good chuckle out his post and thought it was meant to be funny..

 

Everyone is so sensitive these days my god.....

I agree with Jim's comments about how far flight simulation has progressed in recent years, especially with the latest 64 bit software versions and addons (I prefer the word enhancements or extras), such as Orbx, PMDG, A2A, Aerosoft, Active Sky, Milviz etc etc.  However, Frank's post also made me chuckle, because I am fairly certain we have all been there at some time or another, especially anyone who can remember the original Flight Simulators, like Sub Logic's on the Apple II computer.

Sadly, it is too easy to jump to the wrong conclusions or take things the wrong way when reading any post on a forum, especially if the reader doesn't like or agree with what the writer has said.  I think we should all welcome with open arms new Flight Sim users like Frank, no matter what their age or gender is, and help and encourage them to enjoy their new hobby by sharing our own knowledge and experience with them, so that they don't have to learn everything the hard way and make the same mistakes I did when I first started this fascinating hobby.  Isn't this what forums are really meant for?

Bertie 

[Holdit 551]

4 minutes ago, skelsey said:

It will quite rapidly become apparent that if you want to make a small fortune in flight simming, it's best to start out with a large fortune first 🙂

I'm reminded of Richard Branson when he was asked how do you become a millionaire. His advice "Be a billionaire and then buy an airline..."

[VeryBumpy 272]

Yup, I totally see where the OP is coming from.

Thing is....if a perfect, complete, fully featured, hassle-free flight sim was available but cost $5000, would it succeed.

[Buffy Foster 133]

47 minutes ago, VeryBumpy said:

Yup, I totally see where the OP is coming from.

Thing is....if a perfect, complete, fully featured, hassle-free flight sim was available but cost $5000, would it succeed.

I think they'd lose money doing that, though...  🤔

Edited September 15, 2018 by Buffy Foster
dang fingers

[evaamo 549]

2 hours ago, FrankWhittleworth said:

Anyway, I'll switch on my computer next week and try to mend all the 'bugs' that plagued my virtual flight from Heathrow down to Gibraltar today.

Frank,

I think it would be a good idea to open a different post describing those "bugs", I'm sure you'll find answers to most if not all of your questions / doubts / difficulties. There's a bunch of passionate and friendly folks around here that will help you get the most out of this wonderful hobby.

By the way, welcome to Avsim. 

cheers

-E

[calderra 0]

I want to write a novel but quick points from another outsider:

1) Community, don't be like that. Newcomer perspectives are INCREDIBLY important if you ever want this hobby to grow big enough and get enough investment to get the features you want.

2) Everyone saying the guy should start with the vanilla sim and grow with it: Right on. Thank you.

3) It is a moneymaking scam, overall. BUT- the suckers for a real sim are commercial airlines and manufacturers. Who made Prepar3d again? Oh that's right, Lockheed. A profit driven company, who absolutely will sucker anyone into paying for their product if they can.

Big companies are the ones who are prepared to spend big bucks to avoid getting sued down the road when a pilot didn't know how to respond to a mechanical failure because nobody had simulated it. Accurate simulation of cockpit gauges, takeoff, landing, and damage/stress models are the first areas to get treatment for that reason. The next-highest spenders are... again let's be honest... just the sort of people he's pointing to. The sort of people who spend $20,000 on FarmVille or whatever. These people are mostly fine if the plane spawns midair and if they ever land then they alt-f4 the moment the wheels touch the ground.

There's just not enough serious flight sim fans to fund the development effort to make a truly immersive experience. BUT- that may change.

With the advent of the VR era, a simple act like someone handing you a warm cup of coffee is just the sort of experience people are now primed for. Simulators have moved into the 64-bit era, so in time we'll have enough overhead on our machines to be able to spend some memory on other things while still getting ridiculously great terrain and physics.

But it's 100% true that things like "flight sims just moved into the 64-bit era" sound ridiculous to newcomers. Due to the commercial partners involved, you have to realize that simulations which are long-term stable and run on existing hardware (like a full-motion 7x7 simulator some airline bought ten years ago and still trains pilots on) is a very important feature. Due to the memory limits of that era, we really didn't have the overhead to do much in the way of things like scenery and physics running at the same time. Today's sims are still dragging behind because of that effect.

There is hope. The car simulation arena just had its own Renaissance. Just a few years ago, your best options for what to install for hardcore sim newbies were sometimes a decade out of date and were laughably ugly and feature-dry compared to console games (Gran Turismo, Forza, etc). Then all of a sudden things like rFactor2 and Assetto Corsa and Project Cars were all launching within the space of a few years. Today there's almost a new great sim coming every year depending on what flavor of drive you prefer. These sims themselves need more improvement- like it would be nice to have better simulation of ownership such as purchasing parts as cars wear and tear- but the industry is meeting demand faster than ever. The new F1 games are getting more and more simulation of the out-of-car aspect of the season each year.

So OP is right, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if his needs will be met by an out-of-box simulator in say... 5 years' time? Like if some massive project could start a funding drive today, add 4 years for development and 1 year for all the bug fixes until it's really worth playing. It's just not there today.

[Buffy Foster 133]

No, "moneymaking scam" implies there's fraud going on and thats just not true.  😠

You make a lot of claims about the market, but you never back them up.  Those super-casual ppl you talk about are the ones that Flight Sim World thought existed and tried to sell to.  Oops.  Aerofly is trying, too, and we'll see how that goes.

And what makes you think it's "100% true" that flight sims being 64-bit now "sound ridiculous" to newcomers?  Anybody who uses PC and does games understands that 64-bit means more usable memory.

Car sims/games really aren't relevant to flight sims.  Zooming around in a car is more "exciting" than most flight sim flying (maybe try DCS or something for "exciting": flying.  People my age (23) mostly like "exciting" and think flight sims are slow and boring.  I'm an outlier by a long ways I guess, cuz I like flying GA planes and sightseeing and learning to fly and navigate properly.

If you want simulated ownership, wear and tear, etc, some makers like A2A have had that for a long time.

But I dont think there will ever be a out-of-the-box simulator that will make people happy just on its own.  Some ppl like airliners and wont want to pay extra for a bunch of GA planes and avionics they'll never use, and vice-versa.  Some ppl want to fly Europe and won't want to pay extra for a bunch of highly detailed NA, SA, Africa, etc, scenery.  And so on.

Having a good base sim that you can then customize to your liking is the way things are because it works well and everyone can buy what they want and not have to pay for things they dont want.

Maybe learn more about flight sims and ppl who fly them before writing novels. 😛

[Jim Young 2,356]

This topic has gone off topic and new members, like calderra, are calling our developer's scammers ("moneymaking scam").  This can only lead to this topic going truly South and is closed.